Weekender Cockpit Size

[P Doug (WA)]

It is looking great. Woud this boat have been a good canidate for a Cat Ketch rig like the coresound boats? I don't understand all that "stuff" about calculating the CE , CLR, I have read a little about it but it hasn't registered yet. I did go to your web page. Please keep us updated.

[Phil Gowans]

I would like to thank everybody here for the comments to Gaylen. After receiving an e-mail from him, I suggested he put his question to you. You have proven the great resource that you have in the past. He as since asked me the following question:

Do you find the cockpit to be large enough?

I would like to answer that here to add to the public discussion:

At times it would be nice to have a larger cockpit. For single handing it is perfect. For 2 it's acceptable. For any more it isn't. There are definite advantages and disadvantages to a small boat. Fortunately for me (and Unfortunately for you) the answer to your question is better answered by you and what you want out of the boat. Everyone has to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of a design against their own desires.

If you are concerned about space (and I think you should be) I would look seriously at the Pocket Cruiser. It is a nice little boat (even though shorter it is a bigger boat - usable that is, than the weekender). I had difficulty trying to decide between the two; the reason I choose the weekender was only aesthetic. Frankly, I liked the looks of the weekender better. However the Pocket Cruiser is a handsome boat and there are times I wish I had one as well. Even though I have never seen one, I think you might be happier with the added cockpit space and stability with the Pocket Cruiser. Before you start cutting wood you might want to give it a good look.

[Stuart Benbow]

It is looking great. Woud this boat have been a good canidate for a Cat Ketch rig like the coresound boats? I don't understand all that "stuff" about calculating the CE ' date=' CLR, I have read a little about it but it hasn't registered yet. I did go to your web page. Please keep us updated.[/quote']

Thanks. You know, I've never really looked at any rig alternatives beyond the original gaff sloop, and the schooner rig, but I suppose you'd be able to do something similar to rig it as a cat ketch.

As far as CE, and CLR, basically, my goal was to get this rig as close to the stock sailplan as possible where balance is concerned, so that it should "in theory" sail about the same, with more work. Most likely it'll be a touch slower too, since I'm guessing that the four smaller sails won't be as efficient as the two larger ones.

To compensate, When I put her through sea trials, I'm going to have the sails cut with a larger sail area, with a few sets of reef points so that I can bring the sail area down to less than a reefed weekender. I'll do a lot of experimenting with low sail area first until I'm comfortable with tacking, gybing, maintaining a course, and keeping her upright. I expect that I'll try switching from just foresail to just staysail and reefed mainsail, to all reefed, but up, to everything up. That's the theory anyway, the wind might not make that possible. If the wind is too light, and all that reefing won't prove much. Too heavy and I won't be able to put up as much cloth.

The big bonuses to this rig conversion that I can see are:

1. If I get into some serious wind, I've got lots of options for how much sail I need and where I need it.

2. There will be no shortage of things for the whole family to do so nobody will get boored. My son's already proven that he can adjust a jib with guidance, my wife is a better sailor than I am, and my daughter's too young to care what kind of boat it is.

3. It'll be unique (well, for a while at least), so you'll all know it's me out there.

4. It's a dream of mine to own and sail a schooner, and this is MUCH cheaper than the price tag of a full sized version.

[capt jake]

Well Gaylen is going to come over this weekend and take a 'sit' in Fire Escape to see how a Weekender feels. My cockpit is 8" larger than spec, though the cabin is 8" shorter. :)

I am looking forward to meeting him and hope that a Weekender will suit his needs. :)

[Barry Pyeatt]

Fantastic, I think that should convince him one way or the other. Get out the furniture polish, you have visitors coming to see your entry hall centerpiece.

[capt jake]

Get out the furniture polish, you have visitors coming to see your entry hall centerpiece.

NOt until I get the construstion debris gone!!! Most of it is!

[capt jake]

Well Gaylen stopped by today. I am excpecting a few more questions in hte future.

Gaylen and Barb were great people!

Gaylen, just build her! After you answer a few of those questions that I couldn't answer! Talk to those folks; they will steer you straight!

Best regards,

Jake

[Steve Tarry]

For what it's worth, I'm moving the bulkhead forward and enlarging the cockpit by eight inches, like Cap'n Jake. We're never going to overnight in the bloody cabin anyway; who'd feed the animals if we stayed out all night, after all? Unlike Jake, though, I'm going to keep the tool box/seat full size, and with a lid that actually opens.

[Gaylen Beardsley]

I am indeed since meeting captn' Jake and looking at Fire Escape. The fact is, I was almost afraid to touch her for fear of leaving finger prints.

John, what a beautiful job. My wife was as impressed as I was. When I got into the truck, she said, "I wouldn't put that in the water, it's too beautiful."

By the way, Barb has been having some back problems and she could not stand for very long. She was sorry she missed out on the conversation, but knew I would relay what was said.

Thanks John for your time. Seeing Fire Escape has given me a good idea as to what I might need to do. Barb and I talked about making the cabin a lot smaller, right down to none at all. I don't think that will happen as I like the looks of yours. The wider cockpit would solve the whole problem for me I think, as doing that would completely solve the foot room problem that two large people would have.

All I need is an understanding of the chine, and how widening the rear would affect the steering and handling of the boat. Once that is settled, the games can begin.

Thanks again John,

[Gaylen Beardsley]

Barry,

We have almost decided that widening the rear of the cockpit 6" on each side was a doable thing, but Capt Jake brought up the question of the fact that when widened, the chine would be straighter, and we were wondering how that would affect the steering and handling when turning.

What you think?

[Frank Hagan]

I don't think there will be much effect at widening the stern of the Weekender. As Ray said, the weatherhelm may be a bit less when heeled if the chine runs straight from the beamiest part of the boat bck to the stern. And I think it would add to the boyancy. Those are two positive changes. As far as tacking, I don't think that will be affected much at all. The Weekender is a small boat, and it tacks fine in a light breeze. Similar boats with wider transoms also tack well.

It might look different, though. The lines of the Weekender are what seduce us, as its arguably the prettiest "plywood box" boat out there. Widening the stern might give it a boxier appearance back there. It probably wouldn't be enough to change the overall look though.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Hi Gaylen,

I'm glad you had a chance to meet Capt. Jake and try on his "Fire Escape" for size. He and his wife are both very nice people, I knew you would enjoy meeting them.

Yes it is a magnificent Weekender, but you don't need to worry about the fingerprints, he will just buff them right out with the next coat of wax.

He will be a good resource for you while you build.

I take it you are conditionally satisfied with the Weekender for size and fit.

The condition is that you would like more cockpit space to make moving around easier and a little more foot/leg room would be appreciated.

There are a number of things you can consider without modifying the hull.

Slat bench seats, open below. would give you a lot of foot leg room and open space for a small cooler for beverages and that cool salad and Dungeness crab for snacks. The center partition can be modified for the seat supports so it allows for additional foot space without banging your toes. You can make the bulkhead solid so the cabin area is closed off if you don't intend to camp overnight in it.

You can also move the main bulkhead forward as his is by about 6-8 inches and it will give you additional cockpit space. If you don't see using the cabin all that much, it would probably be a good idea.

You can build a small cuddy cabin like on a Friendship with open cockpit and that would provide a substantial amount of additional space.

Eliminating the cabin all together such as Bill Paxton has done with his beautiful Weekender is another possibility. He has accomplished a beautiful solution to his desire to have an open boat with lots of seating. For camping a boom tent /tarp can be utilized in any of these configurations.

If you do decide that you would like to widen the transom, this is what my Marine Architect friend has told me.

As Ray has said, it will likely reduce Weather helm to some extent when heeling past about 12-15 degrees.

It will make it less tippy when at rest, making it a little easier to move around on the deck.

It will help to keep the stern higher and the bow down but not to a very noticeable extent. (That will help with the stem/keel/chine relationship and help to cut back on the pounding when you are in chop.)

It may affect the turning to some extent, but probably nothing that a small increase in attention to rudder profile won't fix.

He pointed out that there are a lot of wide transom boats out there with flat bottoms and hard chines that turn/tack just fine. Just don't extend it to the point that the side looses its curved structural advantage.

He felt that you could take it 4-6 inches on either side at the transom and not have any problems other than the lofting issues. He wouldn't change the side deck dimensions or the lazerette in any way other than its width. If you do decide to go with open slat seats then he would build it with a closed lazerette from the beginning. He also would close in the seat backs as per the plans and build a box back as drawn. The slat seats would extend forward front the seat back.

He would recommend the wheel for steering rather than a tiller if you want to move about in the cockpit easier. But if you haven't used either of them it will be a short learning/adjustment period.

He said to realize that doing all of this isn't going to add that much to the actual cockpit space from the lazerette forward as your greatest space gain will be at the transom and the rear of the cockpit. It will allow you to have a slightly deeper seat by about 3-4 inches and an increase in the foot/leg space of a few inches at the rear of the cockpit. the forward portion of the cockpit will not have any appreciable difference in width.

All in all he said it may make enough of a difference for you to be more comfortable and lessen the amount the stern sets down in the water to some extent.

So you have a lot to consider. If you decide to widen it at the transom, it is a case of making a full sized lofted pattern of the deck as well as the bottom and then making a transom and lazerette to the new dimensions.

He would keep the same offset dimensions of the transom and just not have as much of a curve to it.

He also suggested and I agree that you should ask the Stevensons if they have any experience with a wider transom in the Weekender and what their results were. They may have well evolved away from it for several reasons other than purely aesthetic.

Remember it is based upon a dory type hull design which typically has a very narrow transom, not a wide one.

[Gaylen Beardsley]

WOW, you guys are GREAT. So much to consider and so little knowledge to work with. Right now, I overwhelmed.

I am sitting here thinking I know what a "weather helm" might be, but for the sake of assurance, might you tell me exactly what that means..?

I also like the looks of the boat "as is". There is a lot to this that I do not know. I must keep in mind that this may be my first boat, but not necessarily my last. I might do well to keep my modifications to the interior and cabin and leave the rest alone for my first endeavor.

Again thanks. I will be back in the later PM today 8/31 to see what else has been said.

Blessings,

[Barry Pyeatt]

"Weather helm" is the tendency for a boat to turn into the wind.

A certain amount is preferable and welcome.

"Lee helm" is the tendency for a boat to turn away from the wind.

Not an particularly good thing.

When you release everything with the sails up, you would want the boat to turn into the wind and for it to stall. If it has a tendency to turn away from the wind you will have the sails fill, the boom swing out and the boat can be blown over.

Too much Weather Helm will make the steering heavy and make it difficult to tack. Too much Lee Helm will make it turn too quickly and be difficult to keep going straight when you want it to.

[Bill]

Lee Helm will make it turn too quickly and be difficult to keep going straight when you want it to.

I have found this to be especially true, after to many cocktails when exiting the bar stool! :roll:

b.

[Gaylen Beardsley]

Glad I asked. It turns out I had not the slightest clue what a weather helm was.

tanks