Sailing a Curlew?

[mcdowch]

Ok - I've been having LOTS of fun building my Curlew.  It is positively zen like to work on the boat in the garage in the evening.    But I can't bear skinning it just yet.

 

What I keep thinking is this,  what if take a day and add the structure to put a small sail and on the boat.    I'd have to add a small daggerboard or retractable keel (I like Jeff's concept from a while ago).  But it would be fun to have the ability to sail this sweetie.    

 

Anyone done this or considered it?

[Kudzu]

You would have to add a rudder too or it is going to go where ever the wind wants. If you are going to have a decent size sail your going to need outriggers. My frames are not very strong so you can't carry much sail. But it is possible, just not sure if it is a good idea. 

 

I have looked at sailing one of my kayaks but when it comes to sailing I am a speed junkie. If it ain't blowing, I ain't going. I don't like puttering around. I want to go fast.  After a lot of reading and studying I decided I would need a purpose designed boat. While you can sail a kayak they are very wet with any speed. For my goals it was just to much compromise.

[Hirilonde]

All boat designs are compromises.  A good designer decides what the most important criteria for the boat are, decides on some nice but not necessary criteria he/she would like and sets to work.  In the end he/she probably never gets everything they want, but with skill gets the most important criteria.

 While you can sail a kayak they are very wet with any speed. For my goals it was just to much compromise.

This really is it.  If you want to sail, build a sailboat.  Graham of B&B (the next forum section up) has some beauties from 8 feet and up.  If you are looking to use the wind a little for long distance cruising or racing there are some small downwind sails used on kayaks. But that really is the limit if your design is a kayak with the primary criteria being paddle power.  As aboat approaches hull speed ( square root of lwl times 1.4 =app. hull speed in knots) one of 2 things begins to happen.  Either it starts to plane or it moves deeper into the water and drag increases dramatically.  Kayaks are designed to propel easily at hull speed or less, they do not plane.  A well designed sailing dinghy will plane or at least try to.

[mcdowch]

Thanks guys,  good counsel.   I'll skin her up over the Christmas week and enjoy her as a kayak.    That's why I built her.   Boy but is it tempting!

 

Heck, I'm in northwest Georgia.  I don't even think Lake Allatoona gets much of a breeze!

[falconsails]

I am a long time sailor, and use to think, lateral resistance appendages are necessary when kayak sailing or canoe sailing.  Then I gave it a try. I have kayak sailed for years using multiple boats.  Half with a rudder and half without a rudder.  I have never added a lateral resistance appendage. So I can tell you from many years of experience paddle sailing lateral reistance appendages and rudders are not necessary.

 

Many major aspects of conventional sailing wisdom do not apply to paddle sailing.

I wrote a bit about why lateral resistance appendages are not necessary.

http://www.falconsails.com/KayakSailingFAQ.php#centerboardIf you want some high action paddle sailing, I took a video of a few of my late season paddle sails.

Seehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysVTtX4H8B0In this video you can see a lady paddle sailing a rudderless plastic boat.You can also see me paddle sailing this boat in my profile picture. 

&http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzj2RBy80zc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUhIqK0aU7h7P5QdnpZ-xf_w

 

None of the videos on my youtube channles include boats with lee boards or any lateral resistance appendges.

Before I started taking videos, I never used a rudder.  But now that I let go of my paddle to take videos, a rudder is convenient so I can steer not using my rudder.

[Hirilonde]

I want to see you sail to weather with that rig.  (I know it can't be done, just ribbing you)

[falconsails]

I can easily sail up wind with a Falcon Sail on any kayak.

Not like the Americas Cut racers do, but easily within 60 degrees of straight up wind.Beginners can easily reach back and forth across a lalke or go along a shore line back and forth.

If I paddle as I am sailing, I can get useful propulsion to within 30 degrees of straight up wind.I am not talking about what direction the boat is pointing, or the feeling I am getting.It is all confirmed with gps tracking.I wrote a bit about this here.http://www.falconsails.com/KayakSailingFAQ.php#direction

[falconsails]

Dave

Your boats I see at http://charlestownboatworks.com are beautiful.

Looks like you have reasonable prices for what you do also.I have built a few stitch and glue boats.  It is a great experience, if you have the time and space.Your work shop sounds like a great idea for somebody without all of the things you need.  Space, time, skills, or tools.It be good to put your location on your website. I could see somebody like me getting fired up about building a skin on frame boat with some help.

[Hirilonde]

Thanks for the location idea, I will have to do that.

 

I am not saying you don't have fun sailing your kayaks, but the bottom line is that a kayak is simply not efficient sailing.  I have sailed my whole life and when I sail I want performance.  Be that screaming off the wind or actually getting somewhere to weather in a reasonable time and effort.  Sail/paddling 60° TWA is not performance.  You are right about not needing a rudder to sail.  I can lock the helm on my Renegade amidship and steer by sail trim alone.  Sailing beam reaches back and forth across a pond might be amusing, I sometimes do that myself for the sheer exhilaration of it on a windy day.  But if a boat can't make good headway to weather then I would rather propel it another way.

[falconsails]

My sail racing days led me to be stuck in thinking a kayak can not be sailed, or is not worth sailing.For many years I would not even consider putting a sail on my kayak.I outright thought it was a stupid idea.  Then I discovered the truth of what a good sail can do for a kayak.

I can tell you have not used a well designed kayak sail. Do not let conventional sailing thinking fool you.If you want to sail with a perfect sail boat, you can do that and carry a sail with you when you want to paddle.

 

A properly designed kayak sail can be very efficient. 

You can easily sail to within 60 degrees of staight up wind. That means 66% lines you choose can be taken.If you concentrate just like you have to when sailing a dedicated boat, you can do better than that.With some smart planning, you can increase your actual sailing routs to be very high.

If you demand perfection you will loose out in opportunities.I guess a typical dedicated sail boat may be able to sail 75% when everything is going great and you are concentrating.If you paddle sail, you can go closer to the wind than you can sailing a dedicated sail boat.   About 30 degrees down from straight up wind.  This means 5 out of 6 lines can be taken.

Use a good rig, add some tacking, and you are sailing even more.  Some days we sail a 90% of the day, and could tack to make it 100%, but choose to paddle cuz some times its just faster.

I remember my days of sailing, and I would just not go becuase I would not go unless I knew there would be wind.  Hanging in a sail boat without wind is the worst.

In my kayak, I go even if wind is not a guaranteed thing. When I paddle with a sail its no problem if there is no wind.  I just leave the sail down and paddle.  If there is wind, pop the sail up and sail.  If there is light wind I paddle sail. Its a good time.

Here are some pictures of the sail down.

http://www.falconsails.com/KayakSailingFAQ.php#lower 

If you are in a kayak, and the wind dies, you have a paddle ready to go as a back up.  That beats the hell out of motoring in.

[Hirilonde]

Have you ever seen a kayak shaped sailboat? The answer is no, and the reason is simple.  It sucks for sailing.  People will always play around with ideas.  And amateurs with limited funds will build their own.  It can be fun.  But please stop being a salesman.  While your product might be amusing let's not pretend you have turned kayaks into performance sailboats.

[DURRETTD]

It sounds like falconsails is using his paddle as a leeboard, moving it fore and aft to change the center of lateral resistance and steer the boat. I've done this in a long, skinny canoe. It may not be a high-performance sailboat but it's seriously fun! You're so close to the water that it feels like you're going outrageously fast. You won't sail like a laser or a HUmongus 50, but if you like a little experimentation and don't mind getting a bit damp, it's a blast!

[bil]

Check out the videos in the blog.    http://kayaksailor.com/

[JReed]

It would take some doing thats for sure. imagane you would need to make up a foredeck bridge either over or under the skin for the mast and then reenforcements on the gunnels for the stays. would add a some weight to the boat for sure but would be interesting. A lot of the water tribe folks use sails on their kayaks for down wind runs