wkisting Posted August 14, 2011 Posted August 14, 2011 Hi all, I've been thinking about sealing off the space under the forward seat in our CS20. We don't really put anything up under there. I also find it to be the most irritating space on the boat because the bilge water washes sand and debris up there, where it collects along the edges of the hull reinforcement stringers, which then can be a bit tricky to reach for cleaning. So, I'm thinking of installing a bulkhead to seal it off (i.e., right in front of the CB case). I would equip a 8" dia. round hatch for access/ventilation when need be, and maybe I would move the battery there also, in which case I would mount the battery switch on the new bulkhead for easier access. Has anyone by chance sealed that area? Or is there any reason not to do it? In our case, it would mean we would lose our convenient oar storage alongside the CB case, but I could live with stowing the oars under the sidedecks since they fit there too. Other than that, I can't think of a downside. I did wonder, however, if maybe the cockpit is supposed to be left open in that area because perhaps allowing water to fill that area affects the boat's behavior when recovering from capsize (?). My gut tells me having more sealed flotation wouldn't hurt, but thought I should ask. Wes Quote
Gordy Hill Posted August 14, 2011 Posted August 14, 2011 Wes, I had an extra bulkhead and installed two aluminum tubes (had them sitting around). The tubes accepted the handle ends of my oars. I'm sure pvc would work as well. Quote
wkisting Posted August 14, 2011 Author Posted August 14, 2011 Hmmm... I've got PVC tubes through the main bulkhead already, but as I recall, I think I need the vertical wiggle room aft of that in order to extricate the 10' oars. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll have to experiment and re-measure. If you're right, I could just extend my existing tubes with a collar and more PVC. That would be ideal. Quote
wkisting Posted August 21, 2011 Author Posted August 21, 2011 Looks like it will probably be possible to keep my oar tubes and storage location even if I add the bulkhead to seal off the space under the forward seat. So that's good news. Does anyone have an electric bilge pump installed on their CS? I've never really felt the need for one, but I can imagine it would be handy after a capsize, and if I'm ever going to install one I should probably do it while installing the new bulkhead. Just curious what others have thought/experienced regarding the bilge pump issue. Quote
Ray Frechette Jr Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 You really won't have all that much water in the cockpit after a capsize. the seats extending from bulkhead to transom really limits the water in the cockpit. The seat top extends above waterline when the boat is capsized. You do not have downflooding into the footwell space. By and large you will have under 6 inches of water in cockpit. Not enough in my mind to hassle with a bilge pump. Get it moving again and the anderson bailer will work wonders. As to closing off that area I see no problem with it other than losing oar storage area. I can't see where you will be able to simply extend oar storage pipes and get the same oar length in., But I could be wrong about that. As to the issue of the hull stiffeners being hard to clean... That is why I don't install them. They are a B to sand around too and filet... I lay down 1208 glass cloth over the ply in that area to get the stiffness and drastically improve impact resistance on the entire 6 mm forward hull bottom section. Only done after the ply is bent in place mind you. I don't glass and then bend.. More expensive materials and takes more labor but I have a smooth bottom fore of the transition and I get impact resistance increase to boot. Quote
wkisting Posted August 21, 2011 Author Posted August 21, 2011 Yep, if I were building again, I might consider your 'glass approach Ray. The stringers don't bother me so much as the bilge water depositing debris in that area. With the added bulkhead, it will be a non-issue and the stringers will no longer be visible. If not for the bilge water always collecting dirt there, I'd be fine with the stringers, since they're pretty discrete. But yes, during the build, they were definitely a bit of labor to install neatly. I took care to put a nice little fillet on either side of each stringer, thinking it would discourage dirt from collecting there, but they still collect a lot of dirt--though maybe the problem would be worse if I hadn't done that. I'll take your advice and forgo installing a bilge pump. Your input about how much water collects in the bilge after capsize is exactly what I was wondering. I'm not 100% sure on extending the oar storage tubes, but I think it will be possible to do so and still store and retrieve the oars along the CB case. Quote
ecgossett Posted August 21, 2011 Posted August 21, 2011 Duck-works sells some decent priced round hatches for the hard to reach storage areas that I've seen others using. The thing that scares me about sealing off storage is you don't realize how much you miss it until that one day that you need it (this might just be a submariner view on storage, we're pack-rats). I have no stringers in mine.. I have 10 ounce cloth on the bottom and 6 ounce on the inside bottom. This sandwich approach seems to have worked very well. Quote
wkisting Posted August 22, 2011 Author Posted August 22, 2011 Yep, I would install two 8" dia. round hatches in the new bulkhead so I could still use that space for storage. I'll probably move the battery under there and install a master battery switch also. At present, I have a battery box inside one of the hatches (forward port side), but it can be a little awkward to access the switch to turn on the battery when I want to use the GPS/depthfinder. It would be nice to have it mounted on the new bulkhead for easier/quicker access in the cockpit. I found some scrap PVC last night and extended my oar tubes to the aft edge of the forward seat, where the new bulkhead would go. Good news: The oars can still be inserted and extracted! I wouldn't have believed it, but there is just enough room (about 2" to spare) to still pull them out and then angle them upward to extract them from under the thwart. So I can keep my oar storage location after all, which leaves no real reason not to install the bulkhead. The only thing I'll lose now is my anchor drawer, but I can live without that since it was my first attempt at making more convenient use of the space under the forward seat. I think I'll like the sealed bulkhead better. Quote
ecgossett Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 You could leave the anchor locker and use a hawser (spelling) pipe to bring out the chain right behind the roller. My fitting out classic yachts books has some great examples of this practice, mostly because it recommends storing chain etc in center of boat versus bow. - Edward Quote
Ray Frechette Jr Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 Yep, I would install two 8" dia. round hatches in the new bulkhead so I could still use that space for storage. I'll probably move the battery under there and install a master battery switch also. At present, I have a battery box inside one of the hatches (forward port side), but it can be a little awkward to access the switch to turn on the battery when I want to use the GPS/depthfinder. It would be nice to have it mounted on the new bulkhead for easier/quicker access in the cockpit. How you gonna get a battery in and out of an 8 inch port? Quote
hokeyhydro Posted August 22, 2011 Posted August 22, 2011 How you gonna get a battery in and out of an 8 inch port? Use a little battery, like motorcycle? Or *duck & cover* a PWC Battery! Quote
Ray Frechette Jr Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Sure doesn't give you many amp hours. Best case looking at around 30 amp hrs. Allowing for no more than 50% discharge that is giving you roughly 15 amp hrs usable . Quote
hokeyhydro Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Sure doesn't give you many amp hours. Best case looking at around 30 amp hrs. Allowing for no more than 50% discharge that is giving you roughly 15 amp hrs usable . True. But I'm thinking running nav lights and maybe a cockpit lamp, which could all be LED lights. And of course since a sailboat is *green* add a wind powered charger! Or add a big honking electric start outboard with built in Batt charger . . . *ducking* Quote
Ray Frechette Jr Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 Have you looked at the prices for wind generators?? Best bet is keep electrical demand real light. LED nav lights and GPS and VHF only maybe.... Quote
ecgossett Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 You may as well do a small solar panel, it will pay for its self better then a wind generator for something small. Quote
Ray Frechette Jr Posted August 23, 2011 Posted August 23, 2011 You may as well do a small solar panel, it will pay for its self better then a wind generator for something small. That depends. Solar panels are incredibly expensive means of recharging unless it is the cheapest alternative. IE: Are you day sailing only? If then recharging when you get home plugged into utility power will be but a mere fraction of the cost of solar panel recharging. We looked into various charging means in greta depth in Marine electrical course to incluide looking at the costs of reducing demands. We gfactored ou tthe relative cost to DC fridge recharging battery vs Ice. 5 lb block of ice runs 2.49 at expensive convenience store near water. If using a diesel powered battery charger to recharge same load on batteries it is $15.00 worth of recharge... Solar panles much closer ot ice cost if you are using those solar panels each and every day. But If you are using the panels 1 month out of the year and amortizing cost of panels etc it is more expensive than the Diesl powered battery charger. 1 Quote
wkisting Posted August 24, 2011 Author Posted August 24, 2011 My battery only powers the GPS/depthfinder, so I use a Werker AGM deep-cycle 18Ah battery that is only about 7" wide on its widest measurement (about 2" thick and 5 or 6" tall). It should fit through fine and it runs the GPS all day. If I ever need more power, I'd buy the same battery again and wire them together for twice the capacity. But I'm certain they'll fit through a 8" diameter opening (of course, I'll test it with the hatch before installing it!). I had a larger battery (flooded type) that was twice the capacity, but it was just adding unnecessary bulk and weight, and likely would have spilled in the event of a capsize. I really like the Werker battery because it is so compact and at 12 lbs. is only about half the weight of the flooded battery we had before. I suspect it could run our GPS/depthfinder continuously for two full 8-hour days without depleting beyond the recommended 80% discharge depth, so I think it's the perfect size. No need for solar panels. I installed a small onboard charger that I plug into an extension cord in the garage when the boat is back at home. Quote
Ray Frechette Jr Posted August 24, 2011 Posted August 24, 2011 Sounds like a descent plan. Do tell me though that you have fuses or circuit breakers within 7 inches of the battery post, or within 40 inches of the battery post if all wire is protected by a sheath of some sort to provide really good chaffe protection. To include any hardwired battery charger connections. And do tell me that you have the battery residing in a battery box to contain spilled electrolyte if the battery case were damaged, (Yes ABYC reccomnedation even in the case of AGM batteries...)And that you do have a means to vent hydrogen gas out of the battery box to atmosphere keeping in mind that hydrogen gas is very low density and only floats upward....(Yes AGM batteries can vent hydrogen) And that your battery charger indeed has an AGM setting. Quote
wkisting Posted August 24, 2011 Author Posted August 24, 2011 Yes, to all of the above. The battery is mounted in a small, open-topped plastic tool box, together with fuses, a terminal block (for tidy wiring connections), a DC cigarette-style outlet (for charging a phone, etc.), and a master battery switch. You can see it here: http://www.roguepaddler.com/cs20u.htm#power The charger is an "intelligent" charger that automatically selects the proper bulk, desulphation, or maintenance charging mode for the battery. It is approved for use with AGM and other "sealed" battery types. Technically, you can leave it plugged in all the time, but I only charge overnight and then disconnect it. When I charge, I prop the seat lid open with a stick so that any gassing (which should be virtually nil with a sealed battery, but as you suggested, may still leak) can vent to the atmosphere. I also suspect--given the volume of the seat hatch and the ability for air to vent slowly through the self-draining hatch channels--that it would be fairly safe even if I kept the seat closed. But I'm a cautious type, so I never charge it without the seat propped open, which is simple enough to do. I also never charge without the master battery switch to off. Although it would be virtually impossible given the in-line fuses, I always worry that an electrical surge while charging could fry the GPS or other connected equipment. The master shut-off ensures that can't happen because the whole terminal block is disconnected and the charger is directly connected to the battery as prescribed by the manufacturer. In short, it's a convenient, hassle-free set up that gives plenty of DC power for our needs--even if we were to sleep aboard and extend a day-trip to two days. Beyond that, I'd probably need a second battery if I wanted to run the GPS all day for an entire trip, but probably I would instead just switch to occasional use of the GPS and rely more heavily on the good 'ol nautical chart and compass, rather than bothering to install a second battery. Quote
Scott Dunsworth Posted August 24, 2011 Posted August 24, 2011 We have two group 24's on our Belhaven and get 3 days plus from each one. We use an led anchor light, I run the tiller pilot 80 percent of the time during the days sail, CD player, chartploter all day and a fair amount of lighting at night for reading, and cooking chores. You should be able to get quite abit more time out of one battery than we do. Just nothing like those cruising comforts is there? Scott Quote
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