Princess 22

[Guest Joel Page]

Greetings! I'm new to this forum, been lurking for a couple weeks and finally had to jump in. I am very excited by the Princess 22 design. I live in Vermont, about an hour from Lake Champlain. Short season, crowded anchorages unless you can go real shallow, and weekends that are often dead calm on Saturday, but 20 knots and 6 foot swells for the trip back on Sunday. If your boat can't handle that possibility, then you can't really go anywhere overnight. I've sailed the lake for over 40 years, mostly on 26-30' keel boats, and we always made it back, but sometimes it gets kind of hairy. Those days are tough in any boat under 33' or so, and I suspect that a very light, lightly ballasted 22' boat like the Princess 22 would need that double reef and judicious use of the main sheet to keep the ride from becoming too exciting.

I don't want to start off on this forum sounding like a wuss or a wet blanket, and I don't want to appear critical of this design. Quite the contrary, I think it is a remarkable design for a 22' easy to build trailerable sailboat. I realize it is a new design and only one has been built, and I don't know how much, where, or under what conditions it has been sailed. I also do not know if the larger Core designs are sufficiently similar in design and performance characteristics to be good predictors. So, having said that, let me pick your brains about stability. I do not have a good grasp of the forces that are involved in capsize of a boat like the Princess, as you approach the 90 degree angle of heel. (I suppose it would take a big gust, and failure to release the mainsheet in time, combined perhaps with a big wave on the beam rolling her on her side). Can anyone make an educated guess as to whether, God forbid, you get knocked on your side, to 90 degrees or so, would she be likely to keep going, or right herself (assuming hatches, seat lids, etc. are secured, and the cockpit drains are built as designed). It seems that, with her side decks, seats, and cabin, she would float high enough so that little or no water would come into the cockpit. But once she is over that far, is she more comfortable upside down? I am mindful of the recent Michalak article in MAIB, and the Chebacco stability discussions. Some designs go back up, and some are less inclined to do so.

In the cold waters I sometimes sail in, this is not a minor concern. (I would also like to poke around the coast of Maine, and that's really cold!) I would be building the option with the maximum external ballast. Also wondering about whether a stainless steel center board would make enough positive difference to offset the downsides in price, weight, plan changes, etc. Do you ever find that stock foils for popular boats like the Lightning, Catalina 22, or whatever, can be substituted?

I hope I haven't bummed anyone with this chatter about stability and capsize. Not my intention. I look forward to reading more about the Princess 22. I have lots more questions too. Outboards and outboard wells vs brackets, sheet rigging options, camper canvas ideas. I know, I should just buy the plans and some of my questions will be answered, right. Well, I probably will, in good time. They are very reasonably priced, and I really like what I have seen of B&B's designs, and his frankness and accessibility, and his participation in this forum is great!

One more question tonight. I'm about to build a small barn, which is likely to house a boatbuilding project, as well as cars and a pile of small boats. Can anyone tell me what clearance is needed for a Princess 22 on a trailer with the masts folded down? That is, how tall would the door need to be?

Thanks for your thoughts! Joel Page

[Travis Votaw]

Joel - Welcome to the board. I'm a new poster, myself - still a landlubber. You've asked a lot of questions that I can only speculate about, but Lord willing, in a few months, I'll be able to answer from personal experience. One I don't want to answer from experience will be the final stability question!! Charlie Jones, who posts on this board, is building me a Princess - getting ready to start, right, Charlie?

I built a 17' Wm. Atkin catketch back in the '60s and sailed her for about 10 years. I really like the rig and ease of handling. I also like the idea of shallow draft, because most of my sailing will be in shallow water on and off the beaches. I have a bunch of young grandsons who will be sailing with me and they enjoy being on the beach poking around.

Winds on the central and south Texas bays frequently blow in the 20 knot range and waters can get pretty choppy. I've not had too much problem coping with them. With the little ketch I had, you did not want to cleat off the mainsheet. She was very responsive,though, and would pop right up in a gust if you gave a little slack to the mainsheet. I will assume to sail the Princess the same way. Maybe some of the Core Sounders will chime in on the subject.

Don't know how high the folded rig will be above the ground. The plans show that at the transom, the folded masts lie about 6' above the bottom ot the keel. How high will the boat sit on the trailer? I think an eight foot garage door would be cutting it a little too close.

Charlie says he is going to keep us posted on the construction. His shop is about 15 miles from my house, so I get to go by and bug him in person.

[Charlie Jones]

Driving to Houston today to pick up the plywood. Epoxy and glass tape is ordered. Should be at full tilt boogie by next week

[Guest Joel Page]

Congratulations Travis on taking the plunge and getting started on a Princess. You must be feeling like a kid on Christmas morning (or an expectant father waiting in the delivery room!) I look forward to hearing regular updates about the experience. And I hope Charlie keeps us updated too about the process from the builder's perspective. I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain from time to time. I suspect you've spent a lot of time looking at this as well as other designs, and that some of the questions myself and other potential builders have were already worked through by you and Charlie and Graham.

I am aware of the Princess 26 stability curve, but I do not really understand what it means in the critical 80-100 range. I suspect the table does not take into account the effect of the wave action, which in my experience can play a big role in stability, particularly when abeam. If anyone has a simple ! explanation of the right side of stability curves for the mathamatically challanged, I'd be interested to hear it.

My last "big" boat was a 27' Tumlare sloop, a narrow double ended full keel design by Knud Reimers. Beautiful sailor, high aspect rig like a gull's wing, and love to sail on her ear. At a certain spot on the lake where you approach a narrow cut through a railroad fill, where it shoals, and the waves bend and break, and the wind gusts, we several times experienced being struck simultaneously by strong gust and breaking 6' beam sea. You see it coming, you let out the mainsheet, the wave lifts and rolls the boat as wind shrieks in the rigging, the coaming is skimming the water, and you grin as that 2000 pounds of lead ballast, now extended out at almost right angles, slices through the boiling water. Exciting, not dangerous, unless you lose your rigging and slam into the railroad fill! I guess that is the scene I picture when wondering whether a particular design can "take it". Not a static stability curve by any means. The Princess relies on form stability and good judgment more than low slung ballast, and has many advantages as a result. Still curious if anyone, maybe a CS 17 or 20 sailor, has been to the edge and can report what happened?

[Travis Votaw]

Your analogy of feeling like an expectant father is probably pretty good, except it's been about 35 years since my last kid was born, and my recollection of the emotion has waned slightly. It's beginning to come back, though! Of course, back then, the expectant father got to nap in the waiting room instead of catching the baby as some have the opportunity to do these days. IMHO that was not all bad. However , I will be able to observe the birthing (or should it be berthing? ) process of the Princess as Dr. Jones works his magic. Hopefully there will be a lot less blood and gore than in the real thing. (Careful with those fingers, Charlie!)

All three of my kids sailed with me from the time they were small until grown. Over that period of time it was mostly in two small boats, the 17' cat ketch and an 18' cb fiberglass sloop with cuddy, called a Baymaster 18. I think she was built in Houston, Tx back in the early 70's. This was all shallow water sailing on and off the beaches, mostly camping at night, or sleeping in the cockpit in good weather. I believe the Princess 22 will fit the bill just about right for this type of sailing.

As I am a retired old geezer, I look forward to being able to trailer the boat to a lot of new interesting places. I'm looking forward to hearing from the members of this board as time goes by in that regard.

[Frank Hagan]

There are quite a few of us anxious to see how it goes, Travis. We know that Charlie does a great job, but we'll be interested in how well you like the boat after launching it and sailing it for a bit.

[Gordy Hill]

I've been in some rather heavy conditions with my CS 17 and the only ballast was my more than ample self on the rail.

The Princess is a compromise. It's not a deep keel heavily ballasted blue water boat. If you want a boat that has the capabilities of a deep keel heavily ballasted boat, it would probably be best to get a deep keel heavily ballasted boat. If you want to sail in shallow water, launch and rig easily, and tow easily, I don't think you can do much better than a Princess.

In heavy conditions it would require much less attention than my CS 17, but you'll still have to sail it.

[Travis Votaw]

Gordy - Do you have reef points on your CS 17, or do you always use the third mast step reef position for moving the mast under strong wind conditions? I've never sailed a sprit rig, and am looking forward to it. I was wondering about the ease of reefing for the Princess, and what the process is. I understand jiffy reefing and had the system on my old sloop. Seems that you would lower the sail enough to reset the sprit into the reefed position and just gather up the sail to the reefed position, tie in the reef points, tighten the luff with downhaul and resume sailing. What am I missing?

On my little ketch, I had laced sails with a short section of track to set the goosenecks in with a small cleat below that to hold the downhaul. My sheets were rigged to the end of the booms and I could just roll up the sails on the booms in order to reef. Worked pretty slick since the sails were small in area anyway. Your CS 17 is a much larger boat than my little 17' flat bottomed skiff. She only had 77 sqft of sail- 52 in the main and 25 in the mizzen. Like one guy said when he saw me tacking out of the harbor at Lake Sabine," I thought it was two Penguins chasing each other". She was pretty narrow and had me sitting on the rail if there was much wind blowing at all. She really sailed great with the extra weight carried low inside of all my camping junk, fishing junk etc. I finally began carrying two 80# sacks of sacrete for ballast when I wasn't loaded with other stuff.

[Brent]

Perhaps this is the point I should join in this discussion. First I have to mention how I have enjoyed hearing from the of south Texas armada. In years past I kept a boat under the Rainbow Bridge just off Sabine Lake, where my kids went sailing at a very young age. I cant count the nights we spent out on the lake, or in the adjoining gulf waterways. Matagorda bay, Port Lavaca, Aransas pass..lots of good sailing memories. These shallow draft cat ketches will be great on those waters.

On the reefing...what you describe Travis is very close to what I am planing for my now underconstruction CS20.

*To reef horizontally the sail must have lacing or sail track. I am leaning to sail track because this allows the sprit to remain attached to the mast.

*The reefing maneuver begins by easing the halyard. It may be necessary to ease the snotter also.

*A line run along the sprit to a pulley and up to a reefing clew gathers the reefed sail at the end of the sprit.

*The down haul is repositioned to the reefing crinkle at the luff and tightened.

*The idle sail can now be gathered and tied together forming a line of rolled sail from the bottom the luff to the end of the sprit.

[Travis Votaw]

Brent - Thanks for your response. I think I have the reefing figured out now after your post.

I really like the CS 20. It looks like it will be a blast to sail. The main reason I decided on the Princess was the cabin and I hope the convenience it will give me for overnighting. Also keeping equipment dry, etc. I used to launch at the west end of Rainbow Bridge and tack down the narrow channel to Sabine Lake. I also launched often at the city harbor at Port Arthur. There was always an interesting chop that developed off the breakwater there when the wind was up - a regular merangue pie. I was living in Silsbee, Tx in those days.

I'm also going to use sail track on the Princess.