CS15 vs CS17

[smilicus]

After a hard decision I opted not to go for a 15' design with a cuddy, but rather a open day boat that I can mod to use a boom tent if accommodation.

No I have decide on the Core Sound, but do I need the 17' or will the 15' do for the purpose at hand.

Here is what it needs to be able to have/do:

1. Sailing day trips in False Bay (semi protected bay)

2. Have enough spave for a porta pottie (for wifey)

3. Easy and fast to rig

4. Being build on a tight budget

5. Should be able to store in a garage 18' in length (including trailer)

6. Occasional (once a year) sleep aboard in tent

7. Tons of fun

8. take 4 people on a day trip

Will the 15' be able to adhere to these requirements, or should I go for the bigger 17?  Will the CS15 be just as stable and sea worthy as the CS17?

Any one have pictures of the CS15 - please post them here - cant find much on the web. 

Thanks

[Peter HK]

Hello from here in Australia, though I was born in South Africa and my cousin still lives in Somerset West (per your website). Last visited in 2006.

I'll try to answer your questions

Here is what it needs to be able to have/do:

1. Sailing day trips in False Bay (semi protected bay) Either will be fine

2. Have enough spave for a porta pottie (for wifey) CS 17 a little better

3. Easy and fast to rig Not much difference

4. Being build on a tight budget Not much difference

5. Should be able to store in a garage 18' in length (including trailer) Hard for a CS17- I built mine in a 19 ft garage on a mobile cradle but cannot store it there. If you search the forum you will find that Wes Kisting has a trailer coupling that folds to shorten the tongue...not sure how available that is in SA as I've never seen it in Oz.

6. Occasional (once a year) sleep aboard in tent Better on a CS17

7. Tons of fun Both are fine

8. take 4 people on a day trip CS17 much better for 4

Will the 15' be able to adhere to these requirements, or should I go for the bigger 17?  Will the CS15 be just as stable and sea worthy as the CS17? Bigger boats are always better on the water...just not as easy to trail/ build/ store

Cheers

Peter HK

[smilicus]

Hi Peter

THanks for the reply and answers.  In the end my space constraints will probably win and I will end up building something in the 15' range. Since I am a South African, I have also been looking at a Dudley Dix design, the Argie 15' (http://dixdesign.com/argie15.htm) - What do you think of this design?

Happy sailings

[Ray Frechette Jr]

As Peter pointed out your desires are at odds with each other.

Will have to prioritize your needs.

17 is better for Porta Potti stowage.

With 15 perhaps a built in could be arranged. Perhapos in forward seat area agaiinst forward bulkhead with deck flush to bulkhead and not overhanging on port side of boat.  May require the seat area to not be same height as side seats..

It would be a challenge to fit a 17 in an 18 foot long garage on a trailer.

Breakaway hinged coupler helps, but still dicey there.  You would likely need to unship rudder as well.

17 is very spacious for 4 people,  the 15 would be snug but doable.

And without question bigger boats are more stable on the water to crew movement around boat.  No question you would feel it differently on a smaller boat.

As to question of other designs, I think you are in reality bumping against the constraints of size with both ends of spectrum.  I would think it dubious to store any 17 footer in an 18 foot long garage, or difficult at least.

And it would be hard pressed to get more comfort and space on any 15 footer than the CS 15.

Every boat is a compromise,  every size is a compromise.  Where you gain in one you give up in other areas..

I want a 20 footer that can store in 12 feet of space myself..

We have compression software fore disk storage.  I sure would like to see a compression scanner we could install on our garages that compress a boat as they get backed in that is reversible as we pull them out...

[wkisting]

I want a 20 footer that can store in 12 feet of space myself..

Ray, that is workable. Most people assume it is impossible, but the key to getting a 20-footer in a 12-foot garage is to get a run at it while backing in, and to have a heavy-duty reinforced concrete wall at the back of the garage. Strangely enough, though, it seems that the boat's floating performance is significantly lessened the next time you take it out on the lake... I'm not sure why. I've never heard or read about a correlation between storage space and floating performance. 

Seriously, though, the folding tongue kit I used for my trailer (referenced above by Peter) is the Fulton bolt-on "swing-away" trailer tongue kit (the 3500 lbs. rated kit), similar to the kits shown here: http://www.trailerandtruckparts.com/Swing-Away-Tongue-Kits_c_221.html  I think I got mine for $65 plus shipping. Not sure what it would cost if you want to ship overseas, but it is a nice kit that works well and saves considerable space (about 2.5 feet of tongue length in my case) to fit in cramped quarters.

[Peter HK]

I have also been looking at a Dudley Dix design, the Argie 15' (http://dixdesign.com/argie15.htm) - What do you think of this design?

Looking at the design I see the hull weight of the Argie is expected to be 60 kg compared to 137-160 kg for the CS15. This tells me that for the same length the CS is much more boat- more solidly built and robust and likely feel more secure underfoot. If intending sailing in rougher waters I'd favour the stronger option.

I note that side tanks are optional and "will limit the sleeping width a bit". I don't think the safety aspects of side tanks/ capsize recovery are optional, see my capsize test here

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Looking at the Argie plans to find out why less weight.

No foredeck,  no side decks or coaming.

That translates into 60 KG pretty quick I would reckon.  And those features go a long way to ultimate seaworthiness of the CS 15 design at keeping spray out of the cockpit and increasing angle of heel till water comes over the side.

Graham specific ally drew in side decks, coaming and a foredeck on the CS 17 when he designed it based on his experiences with his BRS 17 in a race where he was sailing with one hand and bailing spray out with the other.

IIRC Graham was drawing it for a client who liked the BRS very much but wanted something more suited to take offshore in the Gulf of Mexico.

FWIW Graham has had a CS 17 out in the Gulf of Mexico 12 miles off shore in 20+ knt winds for extended runs.  The CS 15 would only be somewhat  less capable in my estimation than the 17

[Ray Frechette Jr]

I want a 20 footer that can store in 12 feet of space myself..

Ray, that is workable. Most people assume it is impossible, but the key to getting a 20-footer in a 12-foot garage is to get a run at it while backing in, and to have a heavy-duty reinforced concrete wall at the back of the garage.

Yeah I sort of want it have it revert back to 20 feet as I haul it out.

It is sort of like when my son poo pood my home built Kayak paddles.  He stated he wanted one that breaks apart in the middle when done.

I told him I could do that with mine too.

[Ken_Potts]

The side decks on the CS17 help a lot.  To my untrained eye I think the CS boats will stand up more than the Argie in the same wind, too.  Ignore that last sentence, though - It's pure speculation on my part.

Ray - Please make sure you post pictures of your nesting CS20 under construction.  :cool:

[smilicus]

Hello Guys thanks for all replies and insights.  I sounds like the CS17 os the way to go, but I just go a quote for a Argie 15 kit in South Africa - R 9 000 ($1285) I cant beat that price for even half the materials of a CS17.

SO looks like I will be building the A15 instead.

Good luck with backing that 20 footer in the 12' space.  Some woman does it with there cars in a regular basis in parking lots...hehe