Time to call it good enough

[Daniel Gross]

I'm not totally pleased with the outcome of the roll and tip ploly enamel porch and deck paint,

it's a little rougher than I'd like but after four coats I'm done :?

Next on the list is glassing between the rails, thinking of trying to spray that area. Does anyone know if porch

and deck paint will work with the Preval sprayers? I've sprayed gel coat with them before, with some success.

Thanks in advance

Dan

[MikeStevenson]

Wow; Looks pretty dang good to me.

Mike

[lewisboats]

Yep...one of the problems of Gloss...shows everything you don't want it to. Kinda like spandex....... Semi gloss is much safer...satin even better. Flat works the charm for wood butchers who don't know sand paper from toilet paper...like me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Daniel Gross]

Thanks guys,

the issue isn't that the gloss black showed any defects in the fairing, there isn't any.

Its just that the paint did not smooth out as well as wanted it to.

The bottom of the hull turned out great but the sides look as if the paint is sliding

just a little making it look kinda wavy.

      Anyway, not enough wind to go sailing today so I'm going to glass between the

rails so we can get it flipped back over. :lol:

fair winds

Dan

[anchorh]

The biggest fear that I have when someone says that a paint job looks like it's sliding is that there was insufficient removal of the amine blush before painting. Sometimes it's not obvious until several (weighty) coats are applied for the job to slide. A customer of mine forgot my strong demand that he go at the blush hard with LOTS of fresh water and a Scotchbrite pad before painting. After the application of the third coat of marine enamel onto the console, the whole job sagged, looking a lot like Richard Nixon's jowls. I hope that this isn't your issue.

--Steve

[Daniel Gross]

No, I'm very familiar with blush, I used Aero Marine non blush epoxy and left nothing to chance treating it like it would

blush, rinsed well and dried before sanding and painting.

I have done a lot of epoxy work owning a 30 year old fiberglass Reinell 22 and a 12' catamaran both needed rehab.

The paint did the same thing the epoxy did on the sides of the hull gravity pulling on on it slightly enough to uneven the finish.

Pretty sure the roller ( 1/8" nap foam) was just putting on too much paint causing it to run.

Thanks

Dan

[PAR]

Judging but what little I can see in your picture I'd say it's not a blush problem, but just as you've described it "sags".  These are horizontal drips or runs. The paint is too thin for the application or the paint has been applied to thickly for the application. In either situation the body of the paint has too much mass, to support itself with surface tension alone, until the cure. The result is what you see, wholesale areas where the paint literally move a little, pouching up into these runs and sag lines, then curing this way.

You can sand it smooth and paint again, once the paint is very cure (sometimes up to a month, depending on paint type). On some paints and if the sags aren't too tall, you can buff them out. Again depending on paint type.

If you painted over blush, many modern paints will give a "reaction" but all will not stick. The test is to apply some box tape to an area near the sag, press/burnish down firmly then yank it off quickly. If the paint is well stuck, nothing will happen (assuming it's good and cured). If the paint is over amine, it will lift, peel, pucker and other wise show it's not well stuck to the surface.

I've seen this happen, where whole boat sides have paint that comes off in huge (human hair thick) sheets of cured paint film. The only cure for this is to remove all the paint and start again with a clean surface.

[Daniel Gross]

Thanks PAR,

I agree, think it went on a little thick.

I'm going to try to spray between the rub rails and if that works I'll just sand down the hull sides and

spray them too.

Did get some glass between the rails today :grin:

Fair winds

Dan

[PAR]

There appears to be a small sag or run just this side of the seam in the clear coated section. If this is epoxy then knock it down with a scraper before it gets hard, or it will be more difficult to handle.

[Daniel Gross]

Good eyes PAR.

Already done though, epoxying vertically is a pain gravity is not my friend.

I go out occasionally throughout the cure and knock down any major runs,

it makes it much easier to smooth out later.

Fair winds

Dan

[Konrad]

I was going to also suggest sanding the most offending sags, and ignoring the less noticeable ones.  220 or 400 on a random orbit sander and some touch up with a good brush.

[Daniel Gross]

I hear ya Konrad,

My ro sander is a godsend.

That was only the first coat, one more plus a fill coat since then.

fair winds

Dan

[Daniel Gross]

Just a quick update the paint came out fine, the longer it set the smoother it got, tried primer first on the area between the rub rails and had to scrape it all off both sides for some reason it would not set up and dry, lesson learned.

Dark wind was flipped and the fore peak, cabin and cockpit epoxied, chain plates and partners made, hatch grab rails made and fitted.

I had a spare trailer so it got sanded and painted, ready for bunk boards and new tires.

I had the water patrol out to give me the paperwork to get it titled, it's officially a boat :D

Here are some poor pics.

Trailer

Chain plates

Grab rails

One question, is there an easy way to cut the taffrail out? I'm thinking about making a pattern out of 1/4 in ply and transferring it to the wood to be used, tried doing it directly with disappointing results.

Any help appreciated

Dan

[Andrew_Butchart]

I had a heck of a time with the taffrail and ended up skipping it.  I have a hatch in the transom to access the steering mechanism so there wasn't much room for it anyway.

Being a bit of a "brute force" sort of person, after my first experiments with bending were a failure, I figured out that to cut the piece out of a single stick of lumber (like I did for my transom stringers and coaming) that I would need a 6X6.  Not having one handy, I skipped the step and it looks fine.

If you do decide to do the complex bend that would be required for the taffrail keep in mind that it's HEAT not moisture that helps the wood to bend.  I've seen people use heat guns to head up the inner side of a bend successfully.

[Howard]

I'm guessing this turned out OK? I hope that is the case.

I just noticed this thread and as I started in on it I saw "porch and deck enamel". I assume that is an oil based paint? To quote the System 3 materials, if it says alkyd anywhere on the can, its an oil based paint and isn't compatible with epoxy. Even stuff like Brightsides. It's a one part "poly", but the can still says alkyd. Works on gelcoat.....a polyester.....but not epoxy. Generally.....they don't stick. That adhesion test PAR mentions is a good idea. But sliding off or around would be a symptom that it isn't sticking.

So what does one use? The bad news is inexpensive doesn't seem to be an option. Seems the best solution is an epoxy primer, followed by one of the two part poly topcoats. S3 makes a water based one. The others are Awlgrip, Interlux, etc. I've heard some of the commercial paint companies also make two part industrial coatings that work, but have not been tested, so are not approved for this use. Regular epoxy paints don't hold up to sunlight and will chalk.

Again, if you are finished and this worked out.....GREAT! But for those reading this and getting ready to paint, take head and check it out. Might cost you a bit more, but could wind up saving a lot of extra work in the long run.

[Ken_Potts]

  Hi Howard,

  Alkyd paints do work in some cases - I've had it on my boat for 3+ years.  I primed it (with oil-based Kilz, I think) before painting, so maybe that made a difference.  I've scraped a bit off it off by running into things but it's working well for me so far.  And it looks great from 50 yards...  I should probably re-paint soon  :cool:

  Having said that, though - Your mileage may vary.

[Daniel Gross]

Hi Howard,

The paint came out fine, rock hard and on tight.

I think it was curtaining If that's a word because it went on too heavy.

It's not an auto finish but it looks good from three feet so I'm happy.

Thanks

Dan

[PAR]

I have to disagree with Howard on this one. Alkyds are not incompatible with epoxy. If this was the case then varnishes and most single part polyurethanes wouldn't be used over epoxy.

In fact, if the surface is prepped properly, you don't even need primer at all, just paint, though this isn't my recommendation, though this is exactly what is done with a varnish job.

System Three's "The Epoxy Book" is out of date and out of touch with most modern coatings (except their own WR-LPU's and water born epoxy primers of course). One of their recommendations is that gel coat doesn't stick to epoxy. Well, when the book was written, that was the case, but not now, though also not something I'd recommend you apply over epoxy either. System Three in fact, makes no recommendation other then their own paints. They can't even break them down into categories, resulting from testing.

Fortunately, several other reformulators have done the tests and made the recommendations as well as independent studies (read crazy people like me).

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/finish-coatings/ this link will take you to the West System finish coatings page of their user's guide.

In the end, as usual the best thing is surface prep, which for most should be a well smoothed primer with reasonable film thickness. You can apply any type of paint over this and it'll look good. Acrylics aren't very durable compared to LPU's, but the cost makes you get over this issue pretty quickly. Alkyds and single part polyurethanes can be a little more durable, with better gloss retention, but usually cost more too. Once you get into the multi-part paints the gloves come off the prices and you'll going to get hit in the wallet. I wouldn't recommend any of the epoxy based top coats. They're tough and durable, but chalk up quickly in Florida sunshine (though they can be buffed to a high gloss, if you have enough film thickness to tolerate this). The LPU's are great, but you need to substantiate their use in the budget.

Lastly, unless the substrate (what you're painting on) is encapsulated and very stable, don't even think about the really hard top coats like the LPU's. If the substrate will move from environmental changes (moisture content), yacht dynamics (slamming loads, etc.) then you'll crack and tear these coatings very quickly. In these cases stick with the single part paints, which cost less anyway.

Dan those where sags and runs, but you seem to have it well in hand now.

[Daniel Gross]

Thanks for the info Par,

I think I figured out the taffrail, I cut a piece of half inch ply the with between the hull sides on the laz top, bent it to the horizontal

curve then marked the aft edge to the stern curve then  used that line to make the other side of the curve extending both lines

out another two inches or so, cut it out and it worked!

Clamped it in place and marked the ends for cutting and voila, a perfect template ( I hope )

I'll transfer the pattern to the actual taffrail and hope for the best, looks good so far.

thanks

Dan

[Ken_Potts]

  That IS going to look nice!