Princess Plywood Problems!

[G Man]

After mulling over design after design, I must say I am thoroughly impressed with the B&B designs.  Problem is which one?!  Emailed Graham several times and have the material lists for several.  Fantastic!  Well...  Since I live in the UAE, I began sourcing suppliers for wood.  Considering there is a lot of boat building here I figured this would be easy.  Problem is that they ONLY supply marine ply in 18mm and 12mm thickness. period.  When asking about non marine ply and what grades are available, the options are Chinese or Indonesion.  They (the suppliers) don't even know what grade or quality it is.  It's mostly used for construction fencing and billboards as most building work is done in concrete and steel.  Not a good feeling as to the quality of the stuff.

So, for the experts out there, what would you do?  Read all the articles about using non marine ply and the argument is the same.  I have my eys on the p22, but could I really invest all that time and $$$ into a boat using less than ideal material?  I hate to abondon the dream of boat building over lack of marine ply.  Seems a compromise of using thicker than required ply vs using the correct size non marine version.

Any info that could inspire some ideas would be terrific!!  Thanks!

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

A lot of boats are built with non marine ply.  You just may need to encapsulate more of it with glass and epoxy.  Fir plywood fir instance is used a lot here.  Norman's Princess was built with fir.  As long as you can get fiberglass and epoxy, you are good to go!  Do not let the dream pass you by. 

I would rather use non marine that to use the thicker stuff you can get.

[Tom Lathrop]

A lot of boats are built with non marine ply.  You just may need to encapsulate more of it with glass and epoxy.  Fir plywood fir instance is used a lot here.  Norman's Princess was built with fir.  As long as you can get fiberglass and epoxy, you are good to go!  Do not let the dream pass you by. 

I would rather use non marine that to use the thicker stuff you can get.

Joe,  I would not do that.  The fir ply you referred to is undoubtedly made with exterior glue even if the  ply is not made to marine specs.  I would not waste the considerable effort of building a boat like the Princess with Chiply of unknown quality.  Some testing will reveal whether it is good enough though.  Some of that stuff is really bad.  Like peeling in an overnight dew. 

[Howard]

I'd have to consult a geography map, but isn't UAE right around the corner from Israel? I was of the opinion some of the better Ocume was being made in Israel. Politics and religion may get in the way, but it would be worth a try to find out if something was possible. If not Israel, then France or Greece. It's probably closer to you than to us!

[Greg Luckett]

Just a thought, but you might consider a ferro-cement hull.

[Frank Hagan]

I don't know how it works there, but in the US, most dealers will special order things once they know you are serious.  They usually will give the standard options for most inquiries, but if you go to them with a "bill of materials" saying you need x number of sheets of 4mm, or whatever, they can often order for you from their existing distributor.  You may have to wait for it.

 

[G Man]

Thanks for the ideas.  The special order thing is tough here.  In the US and Europe, things are just easier to accomplish.  Unfortunatley the suppliers are really only interested if special orders are under commercial contracts and are placed in massive bulk.  If it's a small order, it is not worth their time and will charge $$$.   Fortunatley though, I have had a break through!  A ship yard has just got back to me about some stock of 9mm and 5mm marine ply.  They are looking into the exact quantity as it is not a stocked item, but potential for good news!  

Interesting idea on the ferro-cement Greg.  I have not seen any plans or even have a clue as to the process for a homebuild.  Do you have any links or other info on the topic?

As far as anything that comes from Israel, not going to happen here unfortunatley.  I ordered a large wall map of the world from the US.  When it went through customs, they opened it to see what it was and discovered that, of course, Israel was listed on the map and they wanted it either cutout from the map or blacked out with a Sharpie!  In the end, nothing happened, but it is a different mentality out here. 

[Greg Luckett]

Interesting idea on the ferro-cement Greg.  I have not seen any plans or even have a clue as to the process for a homebuild.  Do you have any links or other info on the topic?

Try this link: http://www.ferrocement.org/

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

As far as anything that comes from Israel, not going to happen here unfortunatley.  I ordered a large wall map of the world from the US.  When it went through customs, they opened it to see what it was and discovered that, of course, Israel was listed on the map and they wanted it either cutout from the map or blacked out with a Sharpie!  In the end, nothing happened, but it is a different mentality out here. 

I am fearful that this is what we are heading for here.

[tom151]

I am fearful that this is what we are heading for here.

Joe,

Even though agree with you - I think this forum is NOT the place for stimulating those kind of discussions.

So, please don't start them and please don't fan the flames of similar threads.

[Greg Luckett]

I am fearful that this is what we are heading for here.

Joe,

Even though agree with you - I think this forum is NOT the place for stimulating those kind of discussions.

So, please don't start them and please don't fan the flames of similar threads.

Yeah, and Frank just shut down that other forum that was specifically for those sorts of discussions because no one was using it.  I do not recall its name at the moment.  I am guilty too. If we do not curtail this sort of thing we will end up like the Wooden Boats forums. Let's stick to our boats and related topics.

[G Man]

Thanks for the link Greg, very interesting.  Considering my previous woodworking experience, I feel more comfortable with a ply construction, but if push came to shove finding the material, I would definatley look into it.  They make it seem easy to build in ferro. 

[Greg Luckett]

About 30 years ago, in Texas, married to my first wife (all my exs live in Texas but that is not why I live in Michigan now  ), I met a couple that had a co-op building semi under ground houses, near Dallas. They were using ferro cement construction. I put down money to buy a piece of the land in that valley to build a home but my marriage came apart before I could. The couple ramrodding that community also got a divorce, the wife taking over the community, and the husband the boat building part of the business. He had a boat yard building ferro cement boats down in the Houston area. I cannot recall their names but the idea caught on and a bunch of boats have been built this way. The construction technique was very labor intensive if done by hand and must be completed before the concrete sets to have a uniform seal. My guess is the real way to do it would be to use a concrete pump and spray the mix into the wire weave, then shape with trowels.  That may be what it evolved to.  I think I will go explore that some more and bring myself up to date. I am still liking the semi-underground building idea.

[Greg Luckett]

Here is another link that might be of interest.

http://www.zen27220.zen.co.uk/bb.htm

[Tom Lathrop]

From the cases I have seen, anyone building a ferocement hull because it is easier or superior in some manner may be in for a surprise.  There are actually cement mixes that have densities less than 1 but it seems far from a perfect medium for a boat.  Not to say that some acceptable boats have not been done in ferocement. 

[Greg Luckett]

I have not had the opportunity to examine one closely but hope to someday.

[Scott Dufour]

I'm guessing that it's easier to get plywood to Dubai than to build a P22 in ferrocement, once all difficulties are tallied up.

[John Turpin]

I've never done anything like this, but this just doesn't sound insurmountable.  There must be international moving companies that ship goods to/from Dubai daily.  With the flow of expat workers moving in and out of the region, there must be containers of furniture moving on and off ships/trucks all the time.  I might talk to one of those companies to see what would be involved in adding 25+- sheets of plywood to one of those containers.

[Greg Luckett]

I have worked all over the world when in the Navy. Greasing the right palm always works. Sometimes it was money, sometimes coffee, etc. Barter works everywhere.

[Greg Luckett]

I have worked all over the world when in the Navy. Greasing the right palm always works. Sometimes it was money, sometimes coffee, etc. Barter works everywhere.

PS. Don't break the law.