Vacationer Swing Keel

[G Man]

Hi, new to the forum and boatbuilding.  Been sailing for years and after moving to Dubai in the UAE, I was forced to sell my Helsen 22' sloop.  I am looking at building a vacationer as it seems similar enough to my Helsen in terms of size for the family and trailerability, plus I love the look!  Have done several sailboat restorations and have played around with tweaking designs in attempts to improve boat handling characteristics, so I can't resist with this project either.  One aspect of the Helsen that really worked well was a retractable centerboard-keel.  Has anyone considered this for the Vacay?  The one on the Helsen was merely a 3 1/2 foot piece of 3/8" steel.  Not shaped or foiled at all.  But it provided a ballasting effect which seems to be a benefit for the Stevenson boats, plus when lowered acted as a keel.  It's a very simple and low maintenance design.  With the keel up, the Helsen seemed to handle much like what I've read about the vacay/weekenders.  Overall it sailed well, but lower the keel and the performance effect was huge.  She tracked, tacked and pointed like a dream.  Similar hull design in that the Helsen was shallow and relatively flat on the bottom and quite beemey.  To add this feature would not intrude on the design since I would install it in the middle of the keel and would not required mods to the cabin (except a small tube for the retracting cable to reach a hand winch in the cabin).  It would also solve the ballast issue and doesn't add much time or money to the build.  The only thing that I don't know is if these designs really benefit from a keel or simply ballast is enough.

Any info, ideas, or thoughts on this topic would be apprectiated as this would be a consideration early in the project since the keel is the first part built. 

[Frank Hagan]

You may have read where the original Weekender did have a wood swing keel centerboard, and the Stevenson's removed it for simplicity's sake.  They didn't find it helped with tacking or pointing as much as it should have. 

But I think you have a great idea, in that adding some ballast would be a great addition to the design.  People have added ballast to the Weekender and like the change very much.  It can only help the larger Vacationer that much more.

[Konrad]

Are you considering a swing keel installed inside of the "regular" keel, or maybe along side it?  Going inside it seems like a lot more work, a compromise in the structure of the keel by about 1/3 (which could be compensated for some other way) and possibly a potential for rot since "inside" the "regular" keel would be harder (I'm guessing) to inspect.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but there are things to consider, and asking here isn't a bad place to start.  I've had my Vacationer about 9 years, and to date I'm not aware of anyone doing a keel like you're proposing.  I'd be interested in seeing the design and process come together, if you decide to do it.  And if you have other "regular" building questions (and term is used loosely on this board), feel free to ask me.  If I can remember from the build 9 years ago, I'll be happy to share experiences.

Konrad

[Bud_Wilson]

OK Par you can jump on this like a chicken on a June bug. Bud

[PAR]

If the centerboard was installed in the keel, which I see no structural issue with, it wouldn't help sailing qualities much. On the other hand, if the forefoot was cut down it would help tremendously in maneuvering and pointing ability, particularly if coupled with the same centerboard application.

I wouldn't ballast a Vacationer until you launch and use it a bit, to get an idea how she trims and balances. She'll perform much better without ballast in any case.

How'd you know about my June bug fetish Bud?

[Greg Luckett]

LOL, what an image! ;D

OK Par you can jump on this like a chicken on a June bug. Bud

[G Man]

It seems that ballast would perhaps not neccesarily improve sailing qualities, but maybe improve stability when manevering about and while at anchor as some have suggested on this site.  As far as the keel, some have said that the original plans have called for a centerboard, but found it didn't work as well.  It seems that the biggest drawback to the Stevenson designs is the sailing qualties are not quite up to par as others in a similar class.  But the other designs that those mention would sail better for a similar cost/build incorporate ballast and centerboards.  Granted they also don't have flatbottom hulls which would be less desirable in choppy water, but is something I think I could live with as this would be a bit more of challenge to sail in which is something that appeals to me.

See the Stevenson designs appeal to me in terms of cost/time to build, size and looks, but I am concerned that I might be dissapointed in the handling qualities and coastal cruising ability, keeping in mind I'm not out to set any speed records or race it, but rather just enjoy making way.

I would like to here the argument for the Stevenson's handling qualities. 

[PAR]

Lets see, Vacationer isn't a coastal cruiser, but a protected waters boat.

Her handling will be quite sluggish compared to what you're used to.

Her stability curve is also considerably less then what you're use to (your Helsen had 114 degrees of positive righting stability), Vacationer will be over 40% less then this, though in fairness, this isn't uncommon with boats shaped like her.

Yep, she'll pound a bit in chop or particularly going to windward with a bone in her teeth.

She does fairly well in light winds and lightly loaded, but you're right she's no speed demon.

I'm not trying, though it might seem, to talk you out of Mike and Peter's due. I just don't think Vacationer is the boat best suited for you, considering where you're coming from, your listed needs, experiences and what you appear to want from the boat.

[Greg Luckett]

I agree: the Weekender/Vacationer design is not a very suitable one, and maybe downright unsafe one, for coastal work. Have you managed to do any coastal sailing at Dubai yet?  Watch out for the wind born sand, and there are some really wierd winds and tides too.  Why not build a dhow of some sort?

I still kick around the idea of building a Vacationer for my kids and grandkids to use in the local (protected) lakes and rivers (not Lake Michigan, etc.). It comes down to a matter of limited time and money, so I probably never will.  What I would really like is a Friendship sloop...now there is a rugged coastal cruiser.

[G Man]

Well, even with the ballast/keel it seems the overall consensus is that this is not a good design for my needs.  I would hate to finish the project and wish I had built a design that may have cost a bit extra and/or taken a bit more time to build, but would sail better in coastal conditions. 

[Konrad]

I agree: the Weekender/Vacationer design is not a very suitable one, and maybe downright unsafe one, for coastal work.

Back in 2001 when I had my Vaca in Sarasota, Florida with me, I loved sailing the intercoastal waterway singlehanded.

And I'd always get to the drawbridge and look out at the big open Gulf of Mexico.

And I never had the courage to take it out there.  

Or perhaps it was more a matter of good judgement?

Someone else can decide that.

I can't say that turning it down has been a regret of mine, personally.

[PAR]

A well disciplined skipper can venture into deep water with a Vacationer. Most of the sailors of these boats probably aren't as skilled as would be prudent for these types of adventures. Knowing the limitations of both vessel and crew is one of the key elements toward being a good skipper.

[Mike Pennington]

Wow,

Folks talking about the Vacationer, and Konrad too.

I weigh a hefty 260 and standing on the rail the boat barely heels. But a ten mile an hour wind things can change.

I often sail Kachemak Bay off the Cook Inlet and around to Soldovia, however I hug the coast and choose my day to cross out in the open.

I met Mike Hale owner of Mordag of Ketchikan Island down in the south east panhandle. This boat is built from British Columbia Marine Ply she is about as bullet proof as a Vacationer can be and as exact/stick to the plans. Mike told me how he rolled the Vacationer in four foot surf off the north end of the island. The boats tough, sails good, but with the long keel under her, and getting side ways in the surf, you can get knocked over from the pounding waves.

Mike sailed the Alaskan Marine Highway for over twenty years on the Alaskan Ferries as bosun. When the Coast Guard came to rescue him, he said he was a bit embaressed, but glad to see him.

G Man I've never sailed your waters, but if you have surf the Vacationer might not be for you. She's an inland water boat. Have you considered the Calidonia Yawl? Or better yet, Ask Par What Boat he would suggest? The Man knows his boats.

[Craig]

Hey Mike!  Glad to hear from you.  I too would not recommend the Vac for much open water work.  I have had mine out in the Gulf a couple of times on calm days but wouldn't chance it with the wind kicking up.  Then again in North Florida you are most always on a lee shore with the SW wind.  The boats are just the ticket for large bays and the ICW as Konrad says.

G-man there is no comparison between your Helson and the VAC.  Two diffrent boats for two diffrent uses.  Paul has some designs that will fill your bill better and still scratch the builders itch.  If non of his apeal to you he can lead you to many more designed by others.  Good luck withthis.  :cool: :cool: :cool:

[Mike Pennington]

Howdy Craig  8)

Check out the new website Frank built for me.  http://aurorawolf.com/

The dang Doctors won't let me drive anymore, well for awhile anyway. The meds for suppressing the white blood cells make me a bit weak. I tried to tell him I drive in my sleep all the time, but he wasn't going for it. I suppose he's right.

I took the Wolf out a couple of weeks ago. Woke up headed into the wind  :shock:  But I figure I had a nice nap, I'm not sure how long I was out for.

I've been itching to use my John Henry scarf tool, but the Wife keeps counting my fingers every time I play with my tools.

So now I'm publishing fiction. Who knew?

[PAR]

Handling a boat is breaking waves requires some serious skippering skills and this is no guarantee you'll not get broached, which is what sounds like happened to your buddy Mike. Most broach situations can be avoided, but sometimes you get caught with a stalled rudder or something, just at the wrong moment. This is my point about an experienced skipper, who will see these potential issues and make course changes to lessen the risk.

I'm reasonably convinced G Man is looking at other designs now. In this size range (the second largest of all to select from) he should find something suitable.

[Mike Pennington]

Yepper, That's what I think.

Notice that pretty grey lump on the back of the Wolf? All torque. As a motor sailer that Vacationer does real well in the rough suff.

 

[G Man]

Sorry for the late reply, been doing quite a bit of research on designs.  Thanks for all the great input on the vacationer!  Yeah, I have definatley moved on.  Looking at more seaworthy designs as I know I have really pushed the envelope of the Helson and would like to sail in similar conditions.  My biggest problem now has come from sourcing marine ply!  They only sell 18mm and 12mm here in the UAE.  No other options other than dodgey "commercial" grade plywood.  It's already getting sticky and I haven't even made the first cut!!!

Thanks again everyone!

[Greg Luckett]

Have you asked about special ordering to get what is needed? Another thought, perhaps you could locate a local builder of boats and make an arrangement?

Wow, you have some real issues to work through there. I know that we will help you anyway we can, so keep posting, please.

[G Man]

I have contacted some of the local ship yards and they confirmed what the suppliers said in that they really only build in those two sizes.  There really isn't a demand for other sizes according to the suppliers and builders.  The wood boats here seem to utilize strip plank construction.  Plenty of options in solid lumber. 

Thought about special order, but the costs of shipment from asia of a stack of ply would put the cost of the boat way outside my budget limits. Sort of the rock and a hard place issue.