reducing waste when building with epoxy

[sscoville]

In building my first boat, I was disappointed by how much trash I was producing - throwing away cups, latex gloves, sandpaper, sheet plastic, etc.  I have learned some ways to reduce the trash and I'm sure others have too.  I thought a thread on the subject could be helpful for builders and the environment.  Below are just a couple of things I've learned.

1.  Instead of using latex gloves, use the yellow house cleaning type.  As long as they don't get holes in them or any large bits of cured epoxy, you can keep using them over and over.

2.  Mixing cups - when mixing unthickened epoxy, I take the cup when I'm finished (either plastic or paper) and turn it upside down on a piece of scrap plywood, allowing the rest of the epoxy to drain out.  Plastic cups work fine as long as the epoxy is removed before going off.  Otherwise, it melts the cup.  There is always a thin layer of epoxy left in the cup.  This is okay if you account for it when measuring the next time - if you use pumps it does not matter.  If I use the heavy plastic measuring cups this way, I can squeeze the cup gently after the epoxy cures and the solid epoxy will break into pieces for easy removal.  Then, the cup is like new. 

3.  I've also learned to reuse the tongue depressors most of the time.  After mixing, lay them on a piece of sheet plastic and it won't stick.

These things may be obvious to many builders, but I had to learn them through experience and the production of a lot of trash for the landfill.  Additionally, the price of several boxes of latex gloves, tongue depressors, and plastic cups, adds up over the course of a project.

[ecgossett]

Does anybody do the bagging method when epoxying the boats?? Does it make more sense to do?

[John Weigandt]

Ok.. what is the purpose of the glove... it's to keep the nasty stuff from having prolonged contact with your skin.  Mainly the Hardener in epoxy terms.

I use latex gloves, because they are cheap, and disposable.  You can get thin nitrile disposable gloves that are also relatively cheap.  Latex will be fine if you treat them as immediately disposable.. ie.. put on a fresh pair almost with every batch mix.  You don't wear them more than a few minutes at a time.

I work clean.. well as clean as I can,  When I get some on a latex glove.  I strip it off before I would even think about getting soak through.. off it goes and on goes a fresh clean one.

If you get resin or hardener on a re usable glove, I defy you to get that glove back on you again without getting some on your fingers, whereupon you drag it inside the glove with you.. where it incubates against your sweaty skin.  You leave the glove on longer, prolonging the exposure, because it's such a pain to get in and out of the gloves. 

I don surgical gloves every day at work.  I know how to get in and out of them clean. 

I also keep some of the system 3 SBS cleaner on hand in the garage for the occasional skin exposure.. I clean it up right now. 

10 years working with epoxy off and on.  and I'm allergic to everything else in the universe, but not epoxy so far.

Don't re use gloves if you can at all help it.

John

[Ken_Potts]

  Ray,

  Which epoxy manufacturers are saying not to use latex gloves?  When I read your post I (immediately) looked at the West Systems website for safety stuff and I couldn't find mention of latex (pro or con).  I've read the MSDS's on the various components of epoxy and I'm afraid of the stuff so I take your warning seriously.  Can you point us to some information?

[Howard]

As to the original post, West Marine sells a package of black plastic stirring sticks, which I've been able to use (reuse) with good success. Cured epoxy pops right off and they are good as new. Flat on one end, round on the other. Just don't lose em.

On the gloves issue, about a year ago I had a bad reaction after using epoxy, which it now turns out coincidently happened the same time as a face to face encounter with my daughter's cat. Have used epoxy several times since with no reaction, but the cat continues to cause problems (in more ways than one).

But I went from a carefree "lets roll in the stuff" attitude, thinking it could take years of exposure to worry about a reaction to epoxy to a much more careful approach. If we want to be able to continue this hobby for years to come, we better be as careful as the professionals who are banking on longevity for a living. I can get nitrile gloves at the same hardware store as the latex. I also have a much better breathing apparatus for sanding than those paper face masks, which are only slightly better than nothing.

Better to be safe than sorry (and on the sidelines cause you took yourself out of the game).

[Docpal]

Harbor Freight sells boxes (100) of nitrile gloves in sizes up to "extra large". Depending if it's a "sale week"or not they run from 5-8 bucks a box. Unlike a lot of their other products these are worth the money ( compared to anything they sell with a motor.....).

[sscoville]

I better get some new gloves.  The first link in Ray's post recommends Vinyl gloves.  The second link says vinyl is not totally effective.  My point is to reduce the amount of waste I am contributing to my landfill.  I will be interested to see how the various manufacturers respond to Ray's inquiry.

[ecgossett]

When I was a kid working at my father's company building above ground therapy pools with Plexiglas walls, we laminated big oak beams in a specially designed beam press (the boards shrink slightly as curing so a pressure that can adjust is needed. Thinking about all the epoxying I did wearing regular disposable gloves, rubber apron, & booties makes me think.

I asked my mother about it and she said that the warning always concerned her but was assured by the epoxy company that we where safe with established procedures.

http://www.fernoperformancepools.com/pools_beam_above.html

These are the pools now sold to another company to make. We did partial in-ground as well, the difference that has been changed is the beams join nicely on the ends. The beams used to sit on top of each other to connect. The engineer assured us that joining them the way pictured takes strength out of the beam.

[TonyDay]

I have to jump in here, as you finally got around to something experience has taught me about.  I used hundreds of latex gloves while building my P-22.  I bought them locally at Sam's club and would only use them for a short time before getting a new pair.  I have tried the nitrile gloves from Harbor Freight (have one here in my town) and find them to be really poor in comparison to latex.  These nitrile gloves will soften and tear easily with exposure to epoxy from either RAKA or Graham (use his, it's cheaper).  I am a sloppy builder and need to learn to reduce waste (and my waist) myself, but I will never take the cheap route when it comes to protecting myself from potentially harmful chemicals.

[Ken_Potts]

   Ray,

   Thanks for doing the footwork on this.  I've been reading the various responses to your inquiries carefully and I'll continue to do so.  It looks so far like the various companies are going to refrain from making a real recommendation as far as latex goes.  For instance - "believes that nitrile gloves provide more chemical and abrasion resistance" (emphasis added by me).  I guess I'll have to ask my chemist friend if the dangerous parts of epoxy will migrate through latex in a short amount of time.  Maybe he can do a better job than I did of wading through the MSDS's and stuff.  I'm almost sure I'll get a noncommital sounding answer from him, too, because of all the environmental variables etc.

   And as for the the original purpose of this thread - The only waste-saving tip I have doesn't relate to epoxy.  I just never throw any wood away that won't fit down the pipe of a shop vac.  Even the smallest pieces are good as pads on a drill press or even kindling on a camping trip.

   There - I stayed on topic even though I helped to derail the thread in the first place  ;D

[paul_stewart]

We used disposable vinyl gloves during construction of CS20 #103.  Purchased in boxes of 50 for about 10 cents per glove at a local drug store.  They are comfortable and were 'tough enough' for the tasks that involved epoxy, more epoxy, sanding epoxy, and some primer and paint.  We used mostly B&B epoxy and some System Three epoxy.  I like wearing the vinyl gloves much better than latex gloves.

I found this quote from http://www.epoxysafety.com/chemicals.htm .....

     "Different chemicals require gloves of different materials for best protection. The kind of glove required is hard to pick when so many safety data sheets say to use "appropriate" or "impervious" gloves. Many of you are going to be buying gloves in your drugstore, supermarket, or hardware store. The latex or rubber glove made in Malaysia or some other remote country is reasonable protection against epoxy resins and acetone, but not good with polyester resins, toluene, lacquer thinner, and most paint removers.

      Vinyl gloves will protect against epoxy resins, but are poor with most solvents; especially acetone. Heavier gloves of rubber, neoprene, or nitrile rubber give better protection but are more difficult to work in and are much more expensive. The thin disposable gloves of polyethylene are resistant to most materials but are so clumsy and so easily punctured or torn that they are not of much use. Medical examining gloves come both in latex and vinyl; the latex variety offers protection and they are relatively easy to work in, but, for me, the tight fit makes my hands sweat profusely even in cool weather."

The System Three rep said ...

      "We recommend disposable vinyl gloves.  This is what our plant workers wear and they've experienced no adverse effects, handling epoxy resin and hardener materials on a daily basis."

... which is a strong recommendation for vinyl gloves being adequate:  they recommend them,  they use them,  they report no adverse effects,  and also (assuming their worker safety protocols are satisfactory to OSHA)  doesn't it imply that OSHA is in agreement?     

In regard to reducing waste (used gloves) when building with epoxy :  We went through a lot of vinyl gloves.

The best I could do to minimize the dead glove count was to plan their use carefully.  I know I wasted some gloves due to unforseen problems.  For example, suppose you're halfway into a tricky molding or joining task,  epoxy all over the gloves,  epoxy-coated parts sliding and slipping, and then you see that the clamping strategy isn't going to work.  Quickly you think up a new clamping strategy but it requires grabbing some tools, rolling out some tape, finding some bolts/screws, sawing some blocks of wood, etc. And, you have to take the gloves off to do all that.  Ready to go again, but no time to fiddle with trying to put that first pair of goopy gloves back on.  So you put on a new second pair of gloves to finish the task.   

To anyone who is a first-time builder I would offer this:   for the non-trivial epoxy tasks it helps to dry fit parts first,  have all pieces and tools handy,  think all the way through how that wooden/molded part is going to be clamped in position,  count on everything being slippery,  figure out if you might need an assistant during the task  --just in case. 

By the way, at the local grocery we found some bio-degradible, disposable, clear, smooth-sided, drinking cups that worked well for use in mixing epoxy (or paint).  Often re-usable.   They were made from corn.

 

--Paul

[Ken_Potts]

To anyone who is a first-time builder I would offer this:   it helps to dry fit parts first,  have all pieces and tools handy,  think all the way through how that tricky part is going to get clamped once it is in place,  count on everything being slippery,  figure out if you might need an assistant during the task  --just in case.

   I really like that advice, Paul - Planning ahead reduces waste.  If I have one tiny little joint to make I'll look for other non-related joints to justify mixing a batch of epoxy.  Often there are joints that are unrelated on different parts of the boat that can be made at the same time.  When I was building Southbound I'd go through cutting phases and glueing phases.  When I was cutting stuff I'd cut every piece I could and clamp it into place and when I had enough joints ready for a reasonable amount of epoxy I'd mix the stuff up and go for it.  I think this might be where the old adage that you can never have enough clamps applies.  I'd have a bunch of seat frame pieces ready to go and hanging in the boat through friction before I'd mix up the goo.

   And I was disorganized as all get-out - I built Southbound over the space of years as compared to Dawn Patrol's unbelievably quick birth - How'd you get that finish so much nicer than mine while you were driving down the highway and painting at the same time?

   You ought to haul that boat down to the show this weekend so you can tell everybody how much fun it is to build a Flying Scot  ;D

[Tom Lathrop]

To anyone who is a first-time builder I would offer this:   for the non-trivial epoxy tasks it helps to dry fit parts first,  have all pieces and tools handy,  think all the way through how that wooden/molded part is going to be clamped in position,  count on everything being slippery,  figure out if you might need an assistant during the task  --just in case. 

--Paul

Good advice for any assembly job and epoxy is actually much more forgiving than most wood glues that set up much faster.  Another non-trivial point is to have all your clamps pre-set to a bit wider opening than needed. 

[Noklin]

When I sanded down Jewel, my CS20, after fiberglassing the hull I saved the sanding dust which was cured epoxy. I was wondering if it could be used for a filler or any other purpose? I hate the ideal of throwing away all that expensive epoxy.

[Jeff MacDonald]

The dimethyl mercury mentioned in the article (linked below) doesn't concern boatbuilders but it illustrates the need to choose the proper protective gear. A seasoned researcher was killed because she mistakenly donned latex gloves.

http://www.ehs.washington.edu/ohs/updatestipsgloves.shtm