CS17 and the kit

[Stuart Benbow]

Hello all, been a while since I was on the messing-about forums.  We're getting ready for that next boat project having out grown the Weekender, and heavily abused her during her time on the water.  Poor thing, I really should have used better materials, but that's another lesson learned.

That being said, we're looking at the Core Sound 17, and the kit.  One question I've got though, how on earth do you arrange to get a 250 pound crate offloaded at home.  I can't imagine you get a set delivery time, and even if you do, how are people getting these things off a truck?  It's not like we have forklifts.  Is it just a matter of having friends on standby, or are people making up dollies and running them down a ramp?

I'm alone in this venture.  My kids are too small to help, and my wife is blind, so while she can help lift and hold things when the mood strikes, it's more hazardous than its worth when dealing with something like this.

Tips, pointers?  Also, what are average build times with the kit?

Are there any people in or near Michigan who have a CS 17/20, or are in the process of building one?

The plan is to get the plans during the winter, and get the kit come spring.  My slow season is usually late spring through the summer, so I hope to have the time to dedicate to building one without too many distractions.  That will be a pleasant change if it works.  The weekender was interrupted by a baby, an injury, and a long layoff followed by a career change.

Thanks in advance,

Stuart Benbow

[Apteryx]

I'm also soon to get a CS17 kit, and I hope I can get some help, too.  I assume the truck driver will be able to pitch in - hope so, anyway.

I'm going to take delivery at my office, and will hopefully slide the crated kit over into my pickup bed.  At home I'm hoping I can open the crate on the truck and carry it into the garage in pieces.

This week I hope to get my centerboard finished, if not painted then at least faired and glassed.

[Charlie Jones]

Hello all, been a while since I was on the messing-about forums.  We're getting ready for that next boat project having out grown the Weekender, and heavily abused her during her time on the water.  Poor thing, I really should have used better materials, but that's another lesson learned.

Man- I wish this could be posted on ALL the boat building sites for prospective builders to read. Graham advocates using the best stuff you can get, I beat the drums about using the best stuff you can  get, Tom Lathrop does also.

Your TIME is the most expensive part of the boat. Build it with GOOD stuff, so when it's done and you look back you don't have to say-

"Poor thing, I really should have used better materials, but that's another lesson learned."

Stepping down off my soap box now

[Stuart Benbow]

Thanks for the replies.  I'll have to remember to ask for the kit to be on a truck with a lift gate.

Charlie,

I fully agree.  I knew I'd be sacrificing longevity of the boat, but I didn't realize just how bad it would be.  low end acx plywood with more voids than inner ply, polyester resin, and low end everything just didn't hold up worth a darn.  On the other hand, at the time I didn't have the money to put anything better on the water, so it did give me four years of fun, and introduced a few others to boat building and sailing.  In that respect, I suppose she fulfilled her mission perameters.  Would have been nice to have something worth selling for boat materials at the end though.  If I restore her, I won't get what I put into her at this point.  I may still do that for the kids though.

My skills are more refined now, and my sailing has improved as well, so I'm ready to move to something more capable, and far more durable.  No more junk materials for me.  From all that I've read, the CS17 is a boat that will stay with me for a while.  I can't wait to get things moving ... too bad it has to wait a few more months.

Does anyone have a Bill Of Materials for the non-fiberglass, non-plywood stuff, so that I can start putting together the blocks, cleats, line, lumber, etc?

Thanks again,

Stuart

[Charlie Jones]

On the non fiberglass , non wooden stuff. May I suggest Graham? They sell ALL the hardware, ALL the line, ALL the "Stuff" that goes on the boat, and do it as cheaply, if not more cheaply, than any one else.

I have a wholesale account from a big distributor and B and B can come close to  matching prices with them.

Try 'em, I think you'll like 'em ;D

Oh- and B and B can also give you that Bill of Materials.

[paul_stewart]

Stuart,

I second that recommendation!  Based on our experience building CS20 #103, I can verify that Charlie is exactly right.  B&B is hard to beat just as he explained.  We investigated the purchasing options and were very happy with the high quality and low price B&B delivered in providing all the right stuff.

--Paul

[Stuart Benbow]

Thank you so much for all of that information.  I had no idea that you could get that complete a kit for these boats.  I'm used to the weekender, which involved me heading off to the hardware store for the occasional add-ons that weren't mentioned in the bill of materials.

The more I hear about the CS 17, Graham, and B and B Yacht Designs, the more I'm convinced that this is the right way to go.

Wish I could get started now, but it's got to wait a couple more months yet.

Stuart

[Stuart Benbow]

Thanks for the update Ray.  I mis-spoke, when I mentioned kit, but good to get clarification anyway.  When you say $500 for the aluminum mast, is that for one or both masts on the coresound, and with or without a sail track?

Do you figure that the $3000 to $4000 is still about right for an estimate with the pre-cut plywood, or should I be setting aside a little more for a fully rigged and ready to sail boat?  I've already got a trailer.

[Stuart Benbow]

Ray,

Thanks for the updated figures.  Gives me an idea of how much I'll need set aside for the immediate needs, and how much I'll need to set aside from each check once I start so that I have money for the details once the hull is done. 

If I come in under, hey, I've got some cruising money, far better to expect the high ball answer, and not spend that much than to expect the low end answer and need another two grand or so, especially for me when typically, 9 months a year is earnings and 3 is lay off / build the boat / sail the boat time.  Once I get into layoff season, if the money ain't there, the boat sits until the following summer.

While I wait, I'm having a grand time reading over past postings and adventure stories.  Love the various topics.

Stuart

[wkisting]

Stuart,

FWIW, the B&B site lists an estimated $2500 - 3000 average for the CS20, but we've found (on the build we're just nearly completed with now) that a more realistic figure is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $6000 - 8000, assuming you use top-grade materials for everything, cut no corners, and choose all the high-end options (such as sail track, etc.). We bought our epoxy from Raka in Florida, all our rigging/blocks/spars/sails from Graham, our Douglas Fir locally, our paint from Hamilton marine, and our plywood (BS1088 Okoume and Meranti) from Boulter Plywood in Massachusetts. In almost every case, these were the best prices we could find (or ship in) anywhere in the Southeast region where we live (in Augusta, GA). We did spend about $350 on a few boards of clear-grained mahogany (for trim pieces) that could've been left out, but otherwise, I can't think of anything we spent that other builders wouldn't also have to spend to build the boat to the top-grade specs suggested in the plans (We didn't buy the kit, and I didn't include my custom-built SS motor mount in that estimate). And there is also very likely another $1000 in hidden costs (rubber gloves, brushes, foam rollers, temporary fasteners, etc.) as well as the expense of a trailer. Of course, if you want to put a dollar value on aches and pains from all your labor, then you have to factor in perhaps $3000 more, if you're willing to work for minimum wage. 

I suspect that Graham and some of the semi-professional builders may be able to save more than the average builder, whether because they have usable supplies already on-hand from previous builds, or because they get a licensed builder's discount, or because they have time to wait and jump on good deals whenever they happen along (whereas the average builder just buys supplies as needed during the build, or right before it). This is my third build, and I've learned to find good deals on supplies, but even if I had cut a few corners, I still couldn't have built our CS20 for less than double the estimated costs listed on the B&B website (which pre-dates the sharp rise in gas and supply prices--that may be another reason for the discrepancy).

[Edited to correct typo.]

[Stuart Benbow]

Hi guys, great information.  I may have mis-represented myself.  So long as I plan ahead for the expense, money isn't a concern, it's surprise expenses part way through the build that would get me.  That being said, great information, and thanks for the home builder perspective as well as the business perspective.

Ray, I have to give you and Charlie a lot of respect building boats for a living.  It can't be easy in this day and age to get people to appreciate hand crafted beauty when the world seems to value instant, replacable junk so highly.  I don't know what the costs are, but the Cleveland Mid-america boat show has at least one home builder booth each year, and occasionally two.  The Cleveland Amateur Boat Building Society hauls in their members various projects, and usually builds an optimus dinghy during the show which they donate.  That being said, some shows may be more open to wooden boats than others?

I'm not one to buy boats, but I do know a few that are more likely to buy than build, and I try to push businesses like yours to these folks to try and break the plastic boat mold.  Keep up the great work, your boats are a thing of beauty, and a single wooden boat draws far more attention than a hundred clones in a given waterfront.

Stuart

[Apteryx]

I have to fess up, something that's been bugging me.  Before deciding to build a Core Sound I sent a query to Ray, looking for information.  If my project comes out even close to what Ray does it'll be a miracle.  I don't know what I'm doing, not much, anyway, but even the little start I've made has been rewarding.

The reason I decided to build was so I could learn.  It wasn't the money, Ray is well worth it.  Compare what he charges for a Core Sound versus what a factory charges for a new daysailer and he's competitive - competitive with a hand-built work of art versus a chop-gun creation.  A heck of a deal, and the boat performs well, to boot.  I suspect Ray even has a cheerful sense of humah, too. 

Anyway, Ray, I wrote you once about ordering a Core Sound and didn't write back after deciding to build.  So, here I am, coming clean.  I just couldn't pass up the adventure of building.  Besides, every other week I'm on 24 hour, 7 day on-call and these days I just don't have many days I could get to a lake.  A boat project in the garage, that's therapy! 

[Guest Dennis M]

Would someone be kind enough to explain what a "step scarf" is? Thanks, Dennis.

[Designer]

The step scarf is just like a regular 8:1 scarf except that instead of a straight taper it steps up in typically 1/4" x 1/16" steps. These proportions will vary to the thickness of the ply and number of steps.

The step scarf was developed by Bill Young for cutting scarfs with CNC machines and I think that they are critical for kits. You can get perfect alignment when glueing because you just push the two panels until the steps are tight together. When you are building from scratch, alignment is not as important because you can scarf before you cut out the hull panels but on a kit the panels are already cut and there are no straight edges to check alignment.

[Guest Dennis M]

Thanks, Graham. BTW, the ply is in and measuring and cutting (and I hope no cursing) begin in earnest this week-end. ~ Dennis

[Docpal]

Ray,

If you liked the step scarf check out Bill Young's later creation; the "wiggle step scarf". The idea is that sometimes a "standard step scarf" still can be detected because it may "show"a "break" along the side of a hull. With the "wiggle" version it breaks up that visual distraction and minimizes the chance of detection. Of course if the scarf is glued properly ,and primed and painted it's usually invisible anyway....

[rattus]

Ray,

If you liked the step scarf check out Bill Young's later creation; the "wiggle step scarf". The idea is that sometimes a "standard step scarf" still can be detected because it may "show"a "break" along the side of a hull. With the "wiggle" version it breaks up that visual distraction and minimizes the chance of detection. Of course if the scarf is glued properly ,and primed and painted it's usually invisible anyway....

Now *that* is cool... provides vertical (if you consider the width in the picture to correspond to the height of the topsides) keying as well!

Mike

[Docpal]

Yup. It also expands the width of the joint when you factor in the fluctuating wiggles. We use this in everything from boats to signs because of it's added registration ability...

[Apteryx]

Well, that wiggle scarf looks cool and the indexing might be better for those of us with precision impairments.  Masking would be more of a hassel (hassle? not sure about spelling and the modern vernacular) but you would get more glue area, and it seems like edge-wise loading would put the glue less in sheer, and more in tension and compression.

On the other hand, the plies where the grain runs along the scarf would have the grain fiber cut.  I'm not sure if that's a factor but it seems like it might be.

Ah, thanks for your understanding, Ray!