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Next build daydreaming...


ScottWidmier

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Ok, I got a problem  :'( .  If I am not currently building I am thinking about building.  This hits me when I am in faculty meetings, sitting in church, driving down the road and even when people are talking to me including my lovely wife  :o .  Currently I am busy tweeking my C12 catboat as a little vest pocket camp cruiser, building two mouseboats for the kids, and just received plans for a Toto I plan on building for my wife who loves the idea of a kayak type boat.  Even so, I can't stop obsessing over my next build!  :-[  I hope you guys don't mind me talking about boats and boatplans as most people who know me, including my family, tend to go running the other way when I even mention the word boat.

So, while I am happy with my 12' V bottomed catboat "Little Gem" I can't help but think about an improved one-person cruising and 4 person daysailor.  The problems with "Little Gem" are 1) only 6' of sleeping space (never realized the importance of stretching out) 2) gaff sail takes time and room to setup, 3) perhaps a bit too small for me and all of my stuff on some of the waters I want to sail on. 

The waters I want to explore include inland lakes but the emphasis for this boat will be the shallow waters off of Florida and Georgia which are absolutely beautiful but require a very shoal draft boat to explore in comfort.  My first thought, and still the front runner, is a sharpie which really was developed for these waters.  Long and narrow so easily driven by a small rig or oars.  Flat bottom which, while it may slap a bit, offers very shallow water capabilities, great initial stability, and a flat floor that doesn't need much in the way of additional building to make comfortable.  Part of me is very KISS (keep it simple stupid) and something like Mickalaki's mayfly 16 with its storage for and aft but not much else built in appeals in a minimalistic way.  I also love Atkin's Light Trow though would have to upscale for my purposes. 

However, I also have always wanted to build a lapstrake boat and for that Welsford's Walkabout is real nice with the offcenter centerboard I am thinking for all possibilities.  Build time would be higher but I have plenty of other boats to use meanwhile.  Of course, there are always the Core Sound boats with their wonderful entries and fast speed but looking a bit too modern to my eyes at least.  However, adding a V or essentially a round bottom, while improving performance in choppy water, may also cut into my shallow water ability. 

I guess another way to start is looking at my requirements.  1) needs to be towable behind my little convertible with a total weight (trailer provisions and all) not to exceed 800 lbs 2) needs a very lightweight rig easily stepped in a few moments (no tabernacle for simplicity and peace of mind) -- this rules out a beamy hull requiring a larger sail to move it 3) Needs enough storage that I can go forward to sleep without moving a bunch of stuff.  4) Cat ketch rig for all of the advantages that comes with it, 5) able to keep up with Catalina 22 on up for a variety of events I would trailer to, 6) able to sail in 1 foot of water (actually sail), able to take 2 adults and 2 rapidly growing kids for a nice daysail with gear.

As for #2, I am completely enamored with a four-sided sprit rig for the amount of sail area on a short mast, ability to furl and unfurl the sail in a matter of seconds, when it is furled it isn't in the way of the cockpit, and the ability to completely tuck the mast and spars within the boat for easy trailering.  Only boat near the size range that uses these sails is the Light Trow though you have to download the plans to see his recommended cat-ketch rig.  I also love the T cross-section rudder that only drafts a few inches.  I have made a couple of rudders like this and love the simplicity and shoal water capabilities.

If I were to build right now (I am not due to the other boats in the pipeline) I would either build a scaled up Light Trow or build a scaled down Ohio Sharpie from Reul Parker's book both of which would be equipped as cat-ketch with an offcenter centerboard to give nice open space to lay down.  I would love to hear other's thoughts especially those from people with skinny water sailing in Florida or off the Georgia coast.

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  Hi Scott,

  You didn't mention the B and B Lapwing.  I'm not sure if it quite fits what you're looking for but if you haven't kept up with Tom Lathrop's build of this boat you might want to check it out on the B and B forum.  It's a pretty little lapstrake boat.

  If you're not dedicated to building one (I know you probably are) I think Oyster Mike might have a beauty of a sprit rigger for you to drop by and trailer home.

  John Welsford does design some awfully pretty boats.  I bet if you build a Walkabout you'll never regret it.  I think I've seen a Welsford boat on the water exactly once (the first day I sailed my boat) and the owners looked really happy.

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The last conversation dealing with a simular request caused a bit of a stir. Indeed I have my opinions on what works for my needs which parrallels what you have dscribed to a tee. In the last three years my vee hull sharpie=skipjack has far surpassed any and all expectations for my desires for a day sailor that stores on a trailer and can be launched with about six to seven minutes worth of setup time. Does the boat meet and fit the likes of catketch sailors? Nope, no way. But I am more of a traditionalist at heart even though the cat ketch rig goes back a long ways too.

One thing I personally would not do is to consider the Reul Parker builds since in the last two years I have witnessed several issues, one major one being that his boats pertaining to your guildlines does not have the interior space in it that you may like, or is my opinion.

You are more than welcomed to take a weekend and sail with me and I can show you what my mixmatch hull can do pertaining to shallow water sailing with a small vee in the bottom which I also strongly prefer over a flat bottom hull. One big reason is that you can actually get the boat off the shore or from a bar a lot better that a flat bottom hull that you have shoved on the beach and have the boat settle in the sands for a while. This is just one issue that I have found that favors the vee over a flat bottom hull. The constant deadrise hull can still be built with plywood.

Let me leave you with a couple of shots of my inside pertaining to sleeping and laying down. This boat weighs just over 850 built with western red cedar unrigged with a tabernacle rig. If you recall my 20 footer, it weighed in at 700 pounds and rigged in about five minutes max..

I am not suggesting that you build anything like what I have built, only show you what I do with the basic shallow water design of a sharpie style hull. This hull at its widest beam is 76 inches.

If you look closely, I can sleep two adults foward, and plenty of folks beside the centerline centerboard with mine. I also converted the boat to a camping style boom with the mast by pulling the pin in the tabernacle and installing a crutch since I do not have a boom on my sprit rig. This also has given me ample room to move about too uinder the tent. The bench seat inserts are 1/2" meranti plywood, two pieces that rest on a small ledge along the trunk and seat moulding.

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20ft version of Shag

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The sharpie is planked with fir marine plywood. (I know, I know, haven't I seen the recent threads? Sure it works in practice, but how does it work in theory?) It's sheathed outside with epoxy and Xynol cloth. the framing is oak for the keelson and cypress for the chine logs and the sister keelsons, as well as the framing for the round stern.

The deck is the same, fir ply, xynol sheathed.

Stuart Hopkins (Dabbler Sails) made a fine job of building the sails.

The only real negative was the heavy main mast. Kind of a bear to step. At first I had the main loose footed and boomless. It was a bit hard to set it well. I added a sprit boom, still loose footed and it was much easier to handle.

Frankly, I sold it mostly because I needed the cash!

I had also been wanting something with more potential for camp cruising, with basic cabin for a while though. When I was again flush I bought something made from an unmentionable material, because it was available and I no longer had shop space. (I do still have a small fleet of wooden boats though, so can I still post here?)

It's a great boat, has all the positive characteristics of a sharpie, as well as the types limitations. (can be wet in the wrong chop..)

It makes a pretty nice motor launch too. We had an Evinrude 5hp fourstroke on it. Jay has a smaller motor now I think. The five was kind of heavy.

I'm glad I stretched it to 20', as per John Gardners' suggestion.

I think the sprit rig worked out well too. It would have been fun to sail it with a more traditional sharpie rig, just to compare.

We visited Jay after he'd had the sharpie less than a year, sailing to Sapello Island alongside the sharpie in a Sea Pearl he'd borrowed for us. I think Jay sailed the sharpie better than I ever had.

He has a nice canvas dodger his neighbor sewed for him, a really nice addition.

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And here's our CLC John's Sharpie, the same boat Mike just pictured, rerigged with sprit booms, which I like MUCH better than the regular booms. We intend to sail it in the Texas 200, but intend to make it into a trimaran before then.

In the next to last picture we have four grown men aboard and just after the picture was taken we turned around, came back in and reefed. She's a HOT boat

The last pic will show how my wife feels about sailing the boat

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http://www.mackhorton.com/

This site has a build thats been taken for the Reul Parker 18. Its slighty modified to gain some additional interior. But the bottom is for all conversation flat from the centerline foward. .

This is my hull with a vee entry pulled up in ankle deep water. [forget about the design. Picture is for demonstration purposes] The small amount of vee has saved me numerous times. Plus the boat performs in those short chop days especially along the sounds of Georgia. I also sailed my 20 in the waters of the west coast of Florida across numerous grass flats under sail with about six inches of board. You will find that the board is surely essential for steerage. My mast is 16 foot and 16' 8". You can shorten the 16 foot mast by a couple of feet depending on the amount of sail area and sail shape and still see 360 degrees under and around the horizon. Shorten it up to 12 foot with a sprit rig ans a single mast with a jib and about 130 to 140 sq. ft. total of sail area and the boat in your size will still be fine with a full crew.

Nice shots Charlie. Par has some thoughts and designs and hopefully he will weigh in on these hulls.

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Oyster, I am all for creating a stir since it creates interesting reading down the line  ;D .  I don't know if you remember but I met you at Lake Hartwell a couple of years ago.  You brought another V bottomed sharpie to that event and slept in the boat.  We didn't have much wind so I didn't get to see what she did.  Anyway, I also have a preference for older saltier looking designs and I really do like both of the boats you have pictured.  I have noticed that V bottoms act like shock absorbers when you face little wind and motorboat chop (modern invention--motorboat chop) so I do like V but was concerned about the boat setting level if I pulled it up on the beach to sleep on and I do want that option.  A V also adds complications like having to build something to level out the floor for sleeping.  I was thinking really simple with sleeping and sitting on the bottom of the boat to keep my windage low and for comfort.  I went to Magnolia beach one year and was really taken with the simplicity of a flat bottomed 14'er were the crew simply sat on some cushions on the bottom leaning comfortably against the side.  They were so low in the boat that they were able to rig a very simple awning that they could sail with...very comfortable for our hot summer months.  Of course, I am also concerned about the bobbing around and noise associated with a flat bottom...compromises  ??? .

I absolutely love your sprit rig sharpie but if it is a 20' clc John's sharpie then I think you changed more than just length.  It looks more like John Gardner's sharpie from his classic small craft book which is another option I have been thinking about.  Do you have any performance observations for the catketch sprit rig?  Also, why do you not like the catketch rig?  I am kinda attracted to it for the versatility of reefing by taking down a mast and the ease of tacking.  I am getting tired of dealing with a jib or genny on my bigger boat.  Besides, you can't argue that two sprit rigs aren't easier to furl and unfurl than a jib.  Having made mostly catboats, with the exception of a 12' dory of my own design, I am totally aware of the limited space in a sharpie compared to other boats of similiar lengths.  However, I do value the easily driven hull type for rowing and simple rigs.

BTW, I will take you up on that offer of a ride if you are going to the Cedar Keys meet in May.  I won't be starting on my next build until the fall at the earliest so I have all summer to take rides.  

Charlie, the CLC John's Sharpie is also on my list but I would definitely get rid of the daggerboard and go for a centerboard.  I have had a couple of boats with daggerboard and appreciate them for performance and simplicity but, even with a self-retracting daggerboard, I do not like sailing in shallow water with them.  The daggerboard adds one more complication when sailing to shore.  In fact, I plan on cutting out the daggerboard on my 12' cat and replacing it with a centerboard.  I need to move my center of resistance forward anyway and a clumsy job to modify the daggerboard trunk for self-retracting has left a lot of nooks and crannies for rot in there.  I do like the smaller transom of the John's Sharpie.  Have you looked at the Light Trow?  It really is a double-ender on the water which I would think would reduce drag no matter how it was loaded.  

Ken, I had looked at the lapwing and was intrigued.  However, I am concerned about stability when moving about with an almost round-bottomed hull.  I want something stable enough to be comfortable sleeping on-board while at anchor.  If I were to build something like that I would probably go for Welsford's Navigator or maybe the Pathfinder but both of those are large boats for their waterline giving great stability and volume but harder to move around under oar and requiring bigger more complex rigs.

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http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/princesspic3.htm

Take a look at the Princess hull bulid and how Graham handles the build with plywood foward to create a nice transition. I created a foot for the boat to rest upright in almost all cases. Even when the boat settles in the sand as the tide and wind changes the boat up on the beachfront, all I do is to have crew or even with just me rest along the nice covering boards to release the boat from the sands and push it out into deeper waters.

I know nothing about the catketch rigging except watching the CS series on the water handle superbly against the sprit rig, but the rig was used in many of the northern built designs and even in the fishing rigs of long ago. I want one mast and one set of rigging to deal with because I am not truely a sailor looking for performance, only a cruising slacker out to enjoy being on the water with my bride.

But I have reefing placed in my sails but went with a lapper jib since I sail and enjoy litewind boating. When it hits 15 knots I can also sail my boat reefed with the same set of sails and also without the jib at all. In lite winds the jib is truely required for pointing and tacking, but the setup gets some getting use to.

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Scott- another design you should look into is Michalak's Ladybug. Here's a link to his article on the boat. many of those pictures were taken either at a Duckworks Messabout on Magnolia Beach or on one of our Redneck Riviera cruises. They slept aboard every night on that cruise, either tied to a dock or pulled up on the beach. In one of the pics you can see Chuck sliding out the side seats to make a double. Really ingenious. Oh and it's a lee board design, so takes shallow water really well.

In the first picture on the site, though the article says "with three men aboard", it's not - that's Laura helming, while she and Chuck worked out where to set things on the sail to get the boat balanced- that was it's FIRST sail. Here's the link to the article-

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/ladybug/index.htm

And for the ones who don't know the boat, here's a pic-

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I really love the looks of that Reul Parker 18'.  Downside is that it uses a daggerboard which is why I was more looking at the Ohio 19' sharpie in that book.  However....very nice amount of space.  Not quite sure about the traditional building methods.  I prefer stitch and glue with minimum framing but it could be converted.  It would change the weight though...

Charlie, I have looked at the ladybug in general and Chucks boat in specific many times.  I love the simplicity of Mickalak's designs but am concerned about capacity of the Ladybug for the whole family.  Wouldn't mind the ability to sleep two as well so that I can take my wife or one of my kids on an open boat adventure...possibly the Texas 200?!?  The Mayfly 16 is basically the Ladybug but with a flat bottom which gives it greater stability, more sleeping space, and no need to build seats inside.  It also won't handle chop as well in light wind conditions and probably be wetter.

Please keep the suggestions flowing as they will help me narrow down on a set of characteristics.  Also, would some of you experienced gentlemen download the light trow plans from Gavin on duckworks and tell me what you think about the possibilties of scaling that up to 18 feet?  It has beautiful lines and I really like the rig he has drawn for it.  Gets away from the simple flat-bottomed sharpie though. 

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Thought I would post a few picture of my current boats FYI.

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Picture of Little Gem at the Glen-L messabout.  I am planning to lower the boom about 6 + inches...have to watch my head but it will be in better proportion to the boat.

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normal_js1024_IMAG0011.jpg my towing rig

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Last two are of the dodger I made in place.  Only takes 5 seconds to set up and there is plenty of storage under the sleeping platform.  I didn't have to migrate my stuff to the cockpit at night because of that storage.  BTW.  Only 6' of sleeping length though wich is plenty for sleeping but not for stretching out full length on my back.  Also, the boat was designed as a daysailer for 2 adults so I am definitely pushing the capacity when loaded as she is in the first two photos.

Below are some pictures of the 12' dory I designed with floatation fore and aft.  Same length boat as above but definitely smaller due to narrow beam.  Rows like a dream, takes a lightweight sprit rig, and is amazingly stable thanks to the flat bottom.  The blue seats are those ones from westmarine and, combined with push-pull tiller, make this one of the most comfortable boats to sail that I have.  Not to mention the instant furling of the sail and the ability to let it stream out in front of the boat when going downwind and the wind gets a bit too fiesty.  People in the boat are friends using her as a tender.  The bigger boat in the back of the other picture is my MacGregor 26D.

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This is the boat that got me thinking about a campcruiser with less beam.  In fact, the open cockpit is 8' long on this so I could actually use it for camp cruising but, due to its small size, would probably pull it up on shore to sleep in it.

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The Mayfly would be a very quick build and you wouldn't have to put much structure (seats etc...) in it.  The storage at both ends should be enough for camp cruising as well.  I think it would be an excellent throw and go boat when you don't want to rig that Vacationer of yours.  As long as you choose not to go out for bob and bake on windless days the flat bottom shouldn't be that big a problem.  Besides, the boat is small enough that you could induce heel by sitting on the leeward side turing the flat bottom into a V.  I am trying to get some of the other folks in my sailing club to build Mayflies for more trailering adventures especially when they complain about the setup and takedown time on their larger boats. 

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This is an interesting thread. I like its pragmatism. Years ago, my dad built a slightly expanded (and expanded upon) version of Atkin's "Aunty Helen" sharpie. It was cheap, rugged, and we sailed it around Woods Hole MA. Those waters are not for the faint of heart and it handled them magnificently. At 19" it had enough floor to sleep on. Made of plywood and glass, it was water tight. Flat bottomed meant no dinghy. A split rig, good freeboard and substantial flair gave it great stability, and a substantial steel centerboard let us laugh at the occasional rock. It made quite an impression on me and my dad has some great pictures of a flock of smiling kids in kapok life preservers cheering as we buzzed the back of my uncle's ~18' Cape Cod catboat.

One could rig this boat lots of ways. a balanced lug yawl, a sprit-gaff sprit-boom schooner, or cat-ketch "pirogue" style with wishbones or sprits. Or, you could do a big and low gaff schooner like Bolger's Light Schooner. My dad ketch rigged it with freestanding hollow box masts, booms, and a little jib. He says it improved the weatherliness to have a jib. I would choose a cat-ketch with a 70/30 area split between main and mizzen and good, full roaches. I think the taller main would improve the windward ability without adding the extra strings required for a jib. I don't mind having a main I have to reef in 15kts of wind if I can really move well in 5kts of wind.

Here is a link.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/AuntyHelen.html

It is not a "looker" but it is handsome in a blockish kind of way.

BTW. I'm turning out a little Michalak "Piccup" this spring. I want to experiment with PolyTarp sails and I want a boat I can haul out of my Pickup and into a local lake or river (all of em are small) in about 10 minutes. It is just too much "messing about" to take my sloop out sailing after work, and besides single handing turns into swimming if one cleats the jib sheet.

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Finally got home...long day...and picked up my copy of the Sharpie Book and saw Oyster was correct!  Also, that is a nice boat now that I am looking closer at it.  Only problem I have with it is the depth of the skeg.  The Ohio Sharpie, on the other hand, doesn't have the big skeg or as much draft requirements. 

BTW, found a similar thread on the Woodenboat Forum.

I do like Aunty helen but it might be a bit small for my needs. I also looked at the sharpie in classic small craft which looks really cool.  However, I had to flip back to the Mower Dory in that book again and, even though it doesn't meet some of my requirements, I have always had a hankering to build that boat.  The narrow bottom would make it more tender at rest but boy would it handle all sorts of conditions.  The swampscot rig is also interesting looking almost as easy to furl as the sprit rig.  Anyone know what the weight is of the finished Mower dory?  One woodenboat school is building the boat: http://www.barefootwoodenboats.com/mowerdoryproject.htm .  Here is a picture of the boat with gunter rig.  It placed second in the british columbia raid against some good competitors.

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DO NOT BE TEMPTED TO WONDER INTO THE DEPTHS OF THAT SNAKEPIT!!! As far as a skeg, the skeg does not increase your draft since its in the tuck portion of the hull. Keep in mind with a rigid mounted rudder with no kick up feature, which is wider than the ones with the kickups. you want something to protect your rudder upon beaching the boat. Sometimes too much skeg does give you some issues and can be addressed by simply removing the bulk of it, only leaving you with the equivilant of the depth of your rudder. But you can also eliminate some of the issues of the flat bottom by adding back some vee in the foward end and still use sheet plywood too, as Graham does in the CS series if you do not want to go that way.

FWIW, the 20 footer that you saw was also built as a 16 footer by some of the older guys. But the Bay River skiff maybe the way to go if you wish to keep with a lighterweight hull and taped seams simular to what you have also posted in some of your shots of the hulls above. .

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