in defense of water based paint

[jan nicolaisen]

So, that can of worms...

I'm currently painting the cockpit well of my CS17 with System Three's water reducible paint. This is boat #4 I use this stuff on, and again I have to conclude how pleasant the process is.

It is winter here, not a notch over 20 degrees for weeks. The shop is sealed tight to keep the temp at 55, yet I sit there in the boat, spreading high tech marine paint without respirator or running eyes or pounding headache.

Besides that aspect, there's numerous other advantages, as I see it. The paint can be recoated in, in..minutes, as a matter of fact. I once put 8 coats on a double paddle canoe before lunch, then sanded lightly and finished the chore off with one flawless coat after the siesta. Done deal.

Recoating without sanding can take place in 24 hours if crosslinking the paint or 3 weeks if not.

I don't use spray equipment. Foam brushes are the preferred method of application on lapstrake hulls and complicated interiors, and foam rollers on big flat expanses of less shapely hulls, such as these Core Sounds. I like the looks of handpainted boats. Some minor brushmarks are no problem, yet this paint flows out pretty nice and looks real good in a semi high gloss kind of way.

System Three alludes to its uses on bare wood, as opposed to epoxy surfaces, but I have not had great luck with that. Being a linear poly/epoxy type of coating it just dries too hard and inflexible not to show minor cracking on real, live wood. This translates into an extremely durable surface, though. Compared to Kirby's marine enamel (some of the finest trad paint) I see the System Three stuff as tougher and longer lasting, for sure. Repainting, like always, require a major sanding job.

What else? Drawbacks? Nothing is perfect. The fast drying takes a little getting used to. Rethinning with water as you go helps, as does a swift, effective technique. Here in the semi arid part of the country this all gets more difficult, but not impossible. I've never used this stuff in a moist coastal environment, but would assume it is a lot easier to work with over there.

Also, it takes at least five coats to get good coverage when hand brushing. With Kirby three seems to do it.

System Three also supplies the primer, again water based and easy to work with. Sands really nice, but takes several days to dry.

BTW, the lights that illuminate the boat on the pic are these screw-in super LED's, which at less than 1 watt a piece can be left on for the whole winter without affecting the bill, or in my case the batteries. They are so bright that all imperfections, of which there are too many, shows up mercilessly!

[Frank Hagan]

Excellent description of your experience with the System Three paint, and also of the process you follow for what is obviously a great looking finish.  There's at least one other builder here who is a fan of the paint.

[Garry]

One big advantage for me, this sounds like a product my wife would use - so I don't have to do all the painting!

PS - great looking boat - good work!

[Howard]

Jan:

Been following your progress in Small Craft Adviser. Looks like the magazine has not kept up . Looking very good.

I agree with you on the paint. Used it on the Spindrift.......

Paint on the surfaces. S3 clear on the bright wood (southern swamp cypress gunwales and black locust knees and breast hook) over 2 or 3 coats of epoxy. Looks remarkably good.

I think I stopped at five coats. What I found was you don't want to push it. What looks dry isn't. Pushing it gets you brush marks. Let it go an hour or so between coats and it works better.

I have test panel of painted and clear coted luan that has been outside for about two years. The "bright" side is not looking too hot. The painted side is holding up well. Cleaned up, it would look as good as new.

I think Ray is also using it on his boats and they sure look good.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

One thing I like about it is that there is no danger of explosion when using it in a cold shop with a woodstove.  I spray and the clean up is all in a sink with water.  Very cool.  I can also say that you can recoat very quickly between coats.  I put 4 coats of primer and 7 coats of topcoat on my Core Sound 20.  Very tough finish too.  It is a bit tough to spray without ending up with a slightly matt finish, because it dries so fast and the paint doesnt have time to float flat before it dries.  The areas I rolled and tipped are higher gloss.

[Garry]

Howard,

Did you use the paint on the bottom also? Is it holding up in the water or do you not leave the boat in the water very long (more than a day or two)?

[Howard]

I used it on the bottom too. So far, it's never been in the water for more than a day.

For a boat left in the water, if painted at all, I'd use a two part epoxy paint to the waterline, with maybe a boot strip to divide it from the topsides......and not the S3 water based epoxy primer. Over epoxy paint, if needed, I'd put down anti-fouling. If you have a layer of cloth down, with faired epoxy, you could probably skip the epoxy paint and go straight to the anti-fouling.

[Ken_Potts]

Ray you forgot to mention one other benefit of heating the shop to 80 to kick off the primer - You're in Maine in the winter and it's 80!  You might want to think about selling tickets for that...  ;D

[Ken_Potts]

  I guess I probably shouldn't mention that I took a half day off work Wednesday to sail because it was almost 80 here.  No.  I don't think I'll mention that.  I did find a good way to get a half day off work though - I took the boss sailing 

  Sorry about the hijack - We're supposed to be talking about paint and I'm learning a lot so please continue.  I used exterior oil based paint on my most recent project and I applied it like a neanderthal so the finish is pretty rough.  I'm very happy to be hearing details about how to get a good finish with a specific type of product and various conditions under which it can be applied.  One day I'll build a pretty boat and it will be thanks to the advice I've gotten on threads like this one.

[paul_stewart]

CS20 #103 under construction will soon be ready for Alan and his old dad (me) to apply primer and paints.  I assume those of you that have used System Three's water reducible (WR) primer and paint used the WR-155* primer and WR-LPU* Topcoat paint. 

Have any of you tried System Three's new WR primer called "Silvertip Yacht Primer" ? 

There is also a "Silvertip Yacht Enamel" and it is apparently not a linear polyurethane and is not 2-part.  Anyone tried that? 

I'm wondering if I should be concerned about using these products on the bottom.  We plan to store the CS20 on a trailer and do frequent day-sailing, but it could be in the water (salt or fresh) for up to a week on any given trip. 

                                                 

_{===============}

_{I've read every relevant post on the forum I could find. The comments are sometimes confusing to a novice boat-painter (me),  so here are the specifics for the products I'm considering....} 

_{* Silvertip Yacht Primer --- is a waterborne, two-part marine epoxy primer specifically formulated as a sandable base for System Three WR-LPU and SilverTip Yacht Enamel. Yacht Primer can be applied over polyester or epoxy resin surfaces, and properly prepared wood, metal, and cementitious surfaces. Use Yacht Primer as a base coat for anti-fouling paints, or over epoxy or vinyl ester barrier coats before topcoating. It will provide performance equal to its solvent-borne counterparts, in corrosion protection, film-build, and sandability. In addition, it is non-flammable and contains no highly-hazardous(HAPS) solvents or heavy metals.  Although Yacht Primer was formulated to provide a smooth, uniform surface for the System Three topcoats, it is compatible with most other marine coatings which are normally applied over a two-part epoxy primer. Yacht Primer dries by evaporation and then cures in a temperature-dependent resin/hardener curing reaction. It may be recoated with additional primer after it is dry to the touch but it should not be topcoated until after it cures. Curing takes about a day in warm temperatures and longer in cool weather. Test for cure by wetting a finger and rubbing it on the primer. If your fingertip picks up some primer then it is not cured. The film will not be water-resistant until it is cured. Rain or moisture from dew or condensation can damage the film. The primer cures as a relatively rigid film, so is not recommended for use on flexible substrates like fabric or thermoplastics.}

_{-------------}

_{* SilverTip Yacht Enamel --- is a high gloss water-based marine finish and is the newest part of System Three's innovative SilverTip Marine Series that brings the marine professional and the do-it-yourself boat owner the very latest in formulated epoxy adhesives, coatings, and putties.  SilverTip Yacht Enamel is the ideal choice for most topside applications where apprearance, durability, and ease of application are important.  There is no fire risk with SilverTip Yacht Enamel and because it is a low VOC formulation, concerns for air quality and disposal are greatly reduced.  Yacht Enamel is available in 12 factory-tinted colors.}

_{--------------}

_{* WR-155 Primer --- is a high-build, waterborne two-part epoxy primer specifically formulated as a sandable base for System Three Resins}

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

Cant give you any reports on performance, but I understand it will be about twice the cost of the LPU product.

[Scott Dunsworth]

I am going to use system three on the three spindrifts I'm building. They are going to be painted on the bottom and inside. I have talked to a few people that spray the stuff and it seem the best way to get a good finish is about 4 thin coats before the clear coat goes on. I have sprayed the primer and it was nice to work with.

I wish I had used it on my belhaven, she is getting a little rat-ee looking after two years. We are leaving Jan.5th for a week of sailing in the 10,000 islands and I hate to represent B&B with a dull looking finish. Maybe With the new stay sail I can dazzle them with performance .

Scott

[paul_stewart]

Joe and Scott,  thanks for the comments. 

Scott I'm curious to know if that means you are using WR-155 primer and then the WR-LPU paint; or, are you going with the Silvertip Yacht Primer and then WR-LPU paint? 

Boatbuildercentral.com is the only vendor I've found that is selling the Silvertip Yacht Primer (~$84/gallon for gray).  Jamestown Distrib. sells WR-155 at about $91/gallon for gray.

For whatever it might be worth, I found the following post on the forum sponsored by www.boatbuilderscentral.com: _{(http://forums.bateau2.com/viewtopic.php?t=14830&start=0&sid=6beb7b0cbb664a4abb81262467ffffa6)}

Joel wrote... "System Three has changed their epoxy high build primer. I have tested the new primer [silvertip Yacht Primer] several times in the last week. Here are my impressions [relative to the older WR-155]:

- much higher build in 1 coat (this is now a true "high build" primer)

- cures much quicker.  Now we can paint in one day, no more waiting for the primer to cure for a week before top coat 

- its still water reduced and clean up is super simple

- opaqueness: one coat covers completely 

There is an induction time of 15 minutes. After mixing, you let it set for 15 minutes before application. I noticed this made a big difference. If you roll it on without waiting the full 15 minutes, there tends to be air bubbles left behind. If you give it the full induction time - it lays out very well.  The only downside I see is that the primer is only available in light gray (no more white).  The new primer will be available in November, in the mean time, we still have the WR-155 in stock.  ...  It [silvertip Yacht Primer] is more expensive than the old WR-155, which we always sold well below the MSRP. Compared to other epoxy high build primers, it is priced lower"

 

And a follow-up post said ...."I looked at Joels' test this morning and it is more white than gray, let's call it off-white or very light gray. It looks like an excellent all purpose color but I agree with everything else Joel writes, it is a major improvement, a real good primer."

And Joel added...  "They (System Three) told me that the new primer will spray much better. Better spraying was one of the goals going into the re-development".

[Scott Dunsworth]

Paul I used the wr-155. I didn't know that it was being discontinued. But I will certainly try the new stuff.

Scott

[paul_stewart]

Scott,  as far as I know WR-155 is -not- being discontinued.  The S3 website description claims that "WR-155 contains corrosion inhibitors".    In what little info there is available,  this claim is not made in S3's description of the new Silvertip Yacht Primer (SYP).  However, the S3 website states that either primer can be applied to metal.  So the availability of SYP does not necessarily make WR-155 obsolete.  It seems that SYP is aimed specifically at boats that do not need a primer that contains corrosion inhibitors.  Just a wild guess....  perhaps it was omitting the corrosion inhibitors that facilitated the development of a "better" primer.                 

[MickG]

Jan:

\I had sent you a e-mail concerning the seat tops on the CS 20 and  I was asking about the side seat tops. Are they scored plywood  or seperate pieces? They look very nice.  M ick

[jan nicolaisen]

paul stewart,

for the core sound i called S3 and ordered paint directly, as usual, and the friendly lady there mentioned that the names of the products had changed slightly as you guys have discovered. the result is a slightly altered primer, and basically the same topcoat.

i ordered the primer and paint with the new names, and after using it i certainly does not detect any difference from the old products, besides the primer now only available in gray. especially the topcoat behaves exactly like it used to.

hope this helps

mick,

thanks for the praise. i replied to your mail a while ago. the bench tops are laid with solid wood, cut thin, about 3/16", and glued down with epoxy. the grooves are filled with epoxy/graphite mix to simulate the typical caulking used.

jan

[Garry]

the bench tops are laid with solid wood, cut thin, about 3/16", and glued down with epoxy. the grooves are filled with epoxy/graphite mix to simulate the typical caulking used.

jan,

I used the same technique with strips of teak for the hatches on Rosebud, a 28 footer I finished from hull and deck back in '85. The graphite-epoxy stood up better than the teak since I let the teak go natural. I had to sand down the epoxy as the teak weathered away.

you can see them in this pic when they were new. (In the pic is the boatbuilder, Ron Mercer, and my friends who were completing a Westsail 32 at the same time.) PS - This is a Gougeon Brothers technique and is covered in their boatbuilding book - a great reference.

http://www.pbase.com/sailrosita/image/33329953/original

The pic is from an article written about the builder that featured my boat (scroll to the bottom of the page to change the size if its too large or too small):

http://www.pbase.com/sailrosita/carolina_cruising_article

[paul_stewart]

Thanks, Jan.  Very helpful.

Primer:  When I called S3, the friendly sales lady there explained that WR-155 has been discontinued and Silvertip Yacht Primer is the new version.    No more WR-155.

Topcoat: Will the new 1-part Silvertip Yacht Enamel replace the old 2-part  WR-LPU?  "No", she said.  And she added that the new enamel is still "under review" and not yet being sold.

Rather than truck it across the whole continent, I ordered a gallon of the new primer from E-boat, Inc.,  in Florida.  They had only 1 gallon ($84) and a few quarts left on the self, according to Joel, but they were expecting a new shipment soon.

According to the S3 rep, a gallon of the new primer covers 250-350 sq ft at 3-4 mils thickness which dries to 1.5-2.0 mils thickness.    I estimate that our CS20 #103 has about 450 sg ft of painted (yet to be done) surface area which would suggest that 3 gallons would be needed for two coats.  Joel at E-boat was fairly certain that 1 or possibly 2 gallons would be plenty for the entire project  ---if we don't sand it all off !  ;D 

Jamestown Distributors' sales rep implied that their current stock of WR-155 was the last they would be receiving from S3.  She did not yet have any of the new primer in stock, yet.