Reefing practices and tricks

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

I got in a little late on the "Core Sound 20 #103" thread.  Figured that the topic it was turning into could get lost...so started another.

I converted to tracks this last year...late.  The reefing I did felt cumbersome.  Untie this and retie that.  Snotter no longer long enough on the mizzen...etc.  Can we discuss what has worked well in saving time and frustration in reefing with track sails?  This would pertain to all the cat ketch boats, so should be of interest to most of us.

Thanks

[Terry Dunn]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for starting this thread.

I had my boat out about 4 times since I added the reefing. The wind wasn't so strong that I had to reef but I played with it a bit. The last time Jane and I were out this year we had good wind with some gusts. We sailed with one reef in and found the boat sailed flatter and it seemed just as fast but perhaps somewhat less exciting with the reef in. Less excitment is good for us older folks.

I look forward to some hints regarding reefing and shaking out reefs.

I ran the downhauls, halyard and snotter back to the cockpit to try to make reefing a bit easier.

Here are some photos of the cheap fairleads I made.

Kinda makes a mess of lines to deal with. Left to right:

DH 2

DH 1

DH 0

Halyard

Snotter

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

Great post, Terry!  I like the fairlead.  Something of that nature from a marine store would have been expensive.  I really like cheap alternatives.  Seems to fit into the boat builders mentality.

So did you run a block at the base of the mast for each reef line?  Do you tie them into the reef/downhaul holes in the sails or do you use an S hook?  A short narrative of the steps you go through to reef would be great!

Did you rig anything for the mizzen?

[Terry Dunn]

I installed blocks on the deck at the foot of the main mast. The first turn is made of sheaves and then I went to the fairleads I posted. The sheaves don't turn so great the way I installed them so I think the fairlead method would be fine all the way. Not real heavy loads on the lines.

I bought the blocks from Duckworths.

So far I have some hardware store S hooks to attach my down hauls and halyard. Clips for the snotter. Clips to attach the sheet to eyes on the sprits.

We have basically only played with the reefing a few timjes and it is not a fluid motion for us. I want to put whateveryocallems on the sprits so they don't come crashing down all of the way when the halyard is loosened.

- Drop halyard

- loosen snotter

- Tighten appropriate down haul

- tighten halyard

- Move sprit

- Tighten snotter

- Tie bottom of sails

Same for the mizzen except move the down haul. I did not rig anything special for the mizzen.

[Charlie Jones]

I want to put whateveryocallems on the sprits so they don't come crashing down all of the way when the halyard is loosened.

They are called topping lifts

[Alan Stewart]

Another question (somewhat tangent) on the subject of sprits, topping lifts and such.

Has anyone noticed any effects of sprits on sailshape in very light air? Specifically the effect of a heavy (relatively speaking) sprit on a sail. Having no experience yet with this and having just built our sprits, I was just curious as to any opinions on the subject. Lighter = better? or maybe slightly stiffer~heavier = better?

CS20 build is coming along nicely. Finished up shaping the centerboard yesterday.

[Charlie Jones]

The stiffer AND lighter the better. DON'T make them so light they'll bend- that would defeat the purpose . But don't over build either.

I usually laminate sprits from at least two layers. Graham agreed that was a stronger method. As of now I've built 8 sprits for various boats and they are all doing well, except one on my own sharpie that is too limber- it bends a bit. Gonna have to replace it soon.

As for sail shape- remember - Graham knocked over 24 hours off the EC record using a stock CS 17, with sprits. And won  again this year with Southern Skimmer, with straight sprits. They don't seem to slow HIS boats down much at all ;D

[Tom Lathrop]

The stiffer AND lighter the better. DON'T make them so light they'll bend- that would defeat the purpose . But don't over build either.

I usually laminate sprits from at least two layers. Graham agreed that was a stronger method. As of now I've built 8 sprits for various boats and they are all doing well, except one on my own sharpie that is too limber- it bends a bit. Gonna have to replace it soon.

As for sail shape- remember - Graham knocked over 24 hours off the EC record using a stock CS 17, with sprits. And won  again this year with Southern Skimmer, with straight sprits. They don't seem to slow HIS boats down much at all ;D

Charlie,

This one of those questions that has several answers. Sail shape is obviously adversely affected by a straight sprit.  How much is another question.  We have always ,with one exception, used straight sprits locally.  Graham and I always were able beat that one boat with a curved sprit in otherwise identical BRS's.  Go figure.

The straight sprit is so much easier to build, rig and handle that it is hard to see the advantage of a wishbone or half wishbone in any normal use.  As a result, we don't go to the extra trouble.

On the other hand, if we were racing as a class and the wishbone was allowed, we might be forced into making them if they proven superior.  Remember, the straight sprit can be a disadvantage on only one sail, which alternates on every tack. 

If I were having sprit sails on a large boat where the rig stayed in place all the time, I would have a full wishbone.  In that case, sailhandling, particularly reefing and hoisting/lowering would be simpler with the full wishbone than a straight sprit.

Oh yeah, Terry that is a neat idea.

[Charlie Jones]

Yeah Tom. I thought I had said that about the trouble rigging, but realized I had said it in an email to someone. Been talking to a guy up in the NW about a build and he's hot to do wishbones. I've been telling him that they really weren't worth the trouble.

But in the emails, not here on the board ;D

[Travis Votaw]

A wishbone might be worth it if you left you boat in the water, or were going to be out for a few days on the water.  It would control your sail a lot better when lowered in the "hammock" - don't know what it is called, but the lines under the wishbone that work like lazyjacks to contain the sail.

 

It could be made to dis-assemble for getting it around the mast without too much trouble, but the choker rigging would be more complex than the snotter rigging on a straight sprit boom.  If I wasn't so lazy, I'd make one for the main just to try it out ;D

[Doug Cameron]

Graham and Freddie did break a sprit with an accidental jibe in the 2006 EC.  They did a duct tape splint and finished first.

You can't build something strong enough to protect you from yourself, especially when you are tired after the third night at sea.

As to the weight of the sprit, it is much lighter than the boom on most sloops and lighter than the boom on my lug rigged Shellback.

[Tom Lathrop]

A wishbone might be worth it if you left you boat in the water, or were going to be out for a few days on the water.  It would control your sail a lot better when lowered in the "hammock" - don't know what it is called, but the lines under the wishbone that work like lazyjacks to contain the sail.

 

It could be made to dis-assemble for getting it around the mast without too much trouble, but the choker rigging would be more complex than the snotter rigging on a straight sprit boom.  If I wasn't so lazy, I'd make one for the main just to try it out ;D

True enough Travis,

That is what I meant about there being a turning point in favor of the full wishbone.  A cruising boat that is out for several days might tip it for me.  The cradle along with a topping lift would make reefing easier and being out for several days makes reefing more likely.  A permanent line rove through the leech reefing cringle is another option to make it easier. 

I don't see a problem with a snotter since I never rig it back on the sprit.  I like the snotter to be readily available for adjusting to the wind speed so mine always goes to a cleat on the mast for a small boat and to the deck and aft for a larger one. 

There are a lot of ingenuous thoughts on the forum for rigging and reefing is a fertile field for invention.

[Travis Votaw]

I have a turning block at the base of my mainmast for the snotter to head back to the cockpit where I cleat it off.  I always have to adjust the snotter when changing tack from on the wind to off the wind (loosen it) or the sprit will bind on the mast too hard and break something.  The mizzen is already handy to the cockpit.  In this picture you can see where I lead it to on the stbd side of the cabin bulkhead.  This would be a great place to install a pinrail

[Tom Lathrop]

Travis,

That is a problem resulting from the non-rotating mast.  On the Southern Skimmer, we ran the snotter to both sides of the mast which allowed the sprit enough freedom so that adjusting on each tack is not necessary.  Maybe Graham will post a photo to show the rig.  It is a rig that I used many years ago on a racing sloop boom vang for the same purpose.  That is, it maintained even tension as the sail was trimmed in and out.

Typically, the snotter would be adjusted when going from on the wind to off wind and vice versa, just as an outhaul is adjusted on a boomed sail.

[Howard]

On a boat that will have the sails left on (moored, docked, etc.) for long periods of time, is there any advantage/disadvantage to going with booms vs. sprits? Go with the yoked boom that rotates on the mast, lace the sales on (vs. sail track). Such a rig allows the sails to be let out well forward with no binding. You gotta have a vang, and perhaps the sheet loads go up. But that might be offset by having a platform to flake and stow the sails and you could have jiffy reefing. Weighing the pros and cons.

[Tom Lathrop]

For one thing Howard,  a wishbone sprit only works on an unstayed mast for obvious reasons.  The stays interfere with letting the sail out and could easily break the sprit. There is less chance of getting bonked in the head by a sprit than a boom and the lack of need for a vang is important. 

Of course, the foot of a sprit sail is lower than a boomed sail and could sweep you into the water.  At least you might have fewer bruises for the coroner to examine.

[Howard]

I was thinking of a boomed rig like I have on the Spindrift. It's an unstayed mast and has a vang. The only "structural" difference I can see between that and the setup I'm imagining is to replace the gooseneck with a yoke to allow the boom to rotate forward around the mast. Same with laced on sails vs. slides and a track.  Unless the attachment point for the vang also rotates (not likely unless you devise some type of traveler for it), vang tension would change as the sail moves forward of the mast, but you could let that off some....apparently you do the same thing with a snotter on the sprit rigs. But if the sail shape moving forward goes whacky (twists off) without proper vang tension, and the advantage goes to wishbones or sprit rigs when the sails move forward, and you do that often enough to matter, then that's something to consider.

Also, my frame of reference is I've only sailed sloops. I understand booms and vangs. Have never sailed a sprit rig, so I'm mostly ignorant on how they work. But on the surface, the vang and snotter appear to be doing the same thing, except the sprit also tensions the sail and eliminates the outhaul.

Under normal conditions, the only boom you should have to worry about is the mizzen. I suspect both sails will gybe pretty quick, but certainly less "wallop" to a sprit rig if you are up there when it happens. Probably less strain on the mast too. And if the shape of the sail changes or the hoist of the sail up and down to get clearance changes, then that's all part of the equation to consider. I also understand that from the standpoint of how the two work (booms and sprits) to tension the foot and luff of the sail, we are almost talking grapes and pineapples. The geometry of the way the two systems work is entirely different.

Not arguing in favor of booms, mind you, just trying to understand the pros and cons of both on this type of boat (cat ketch). The total package. Performance, ease of sail handling (including stowing) reefing, etc.

[Garry]

Howard,

I would think that the loads on the mast would be higher for a boom vs. a sprit rig requiring a stronger and heavier mast also.

These are my notes on this topic in discussion with Graham about the Princess 28 design:

As for booms, Graham feels they cancel many of the advantages of the cat ketch rig. The vang would prevent free rotation around the mast. The vang would carry a lot of tension and the sheets would carry a lot more tension and require more blocks to get a safe load level.

I may want to consider wishbone booms instead of straight sprits for these large sails. But either one would be easily rigged for reefing. Graham described his reefing technique and it sounds relatively simple. For stowing, the sails can be dropped into a "hammock" under the boom and then stuffed into a bag similar to a jib bag. I would rather do this than leave them in the hammock except for short periods (overnight, etc.).

One thing that I am looking for is simplicity which it seems the sprit rig has over the boom rig.

[Alan Stewart]

Hey everyone,

I found an article on the duckworks website:

http://websitehttp://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/articles/cartoppermods/index.cfm

It shows a design that uses control lines to adjust the height of the front of the sprit (at the mast) which in turn allows adjustment of the sailshape to some degree by tensioning or loosening the leech of the sail.

I'm not really all that interested in curved sprits because I think that it has been shown to not add enough benefit for a race like the EC to justify the time to make a set. What I might be interested in is anything that will help sailshape in really light air. I have yet to go for a sail for any long period of time with sprits so I just don't know. I still need to get up with ken and go for a sail on Jordan.

Does anyone feel like they would benefit from decreased leech tension (assuming you have too much) in very light wind by having a second snotter position lower down on the mast? And perhaps the same could be accomplished simply with an adjustable topping lift that could provide an upward pull on the sprit in light air to open the leech.

I want to see that snotter rig on the SS! I hadn't thought about the effects of the sprit when the sail is let out really far. I am curious if there is a simple solution that would eliminate this problem for all luff tracked non rotating rigs. Maybe it already exists?

[Charlie Jones]

Howard- we own a CLC sharpie with a cat schooner rig ( both sails same size). When I originally built the boat we rigged it with booms. Goosenecks, vangs, the whole thing.

I've since rerigged the boat using sprit booms. Same sails, just did away with the booms. We'll never go back to regular booms on that type of boat. As you can see in this picture, reefing is done like a regular boomed sail.

The sheet loadings are SO much lighter with the sprits you could do away with one part of the sheeting. It's simple to loosen the snotter to let the sail be more "open" There's just so much less complication I really believe in the sprit type booms

Gotta keep saying "sprit booms" by the way because a boat with Spritsails is a different thing.