Cruising Boat

[Howard]

She would be 38 feet, but only 29 or 30 feet on the waterline. The rest must be that long sprit and possibly the mizzen overhang. As per his book, the original design was intended to be single handed.....and with the yawl, can be sailed with jib and mizzen, or main only. I wonder if you couldn't rig her as a cat ketch? The seaworthyness and performance comments caught my attention. Some deadrise, V bottom and outside ballast makes her self righting and very stiff. In many respects, a similar design as Graham's Princess boats.

His printed stuff is now over 10 years old. He may have moved on to less exciting things. I seem to recall having read a recent quote by him in Good Old Boat, something to the affect of selling boat plans will net you less money for more effort than nearly any other thing you can do.

I'm just curious if anyone in recent years ever built the boat and if so, where to find one to look at? There may not be one.

[Guest]

E-mail this guy. I think he has gone to great lengths to contact Parker in the last year. I maybe mistaken, but somewhere in the back of my mind, I think he modified one of the designs for him. Just a long shot.

rodbrink@sbcglobal.net

Check this thread out. This is the Exuma 36'

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002840

[Ken_Potts]

Back in 2000 I started (but unfortunately didn't finish) building a hull from a Parker design - The Cedar Key 22. While I was working on it I fired off an email to Parker asking a question (I don't remember what the question was but I offered to pay for the answer because it seemed like he'd have to burn some time on it). I never heard from him but since I only made one attempt to contact him I can't really fault him (maybe he didn't receive it).

Parker's boats sure are pretty, though.

[Howard]

If you look at Parker's website, his interests have moved on to 60' schooners and such. He currently has one for sale.....and if you step back and look, his recent history appears to be one where he builds one of these bigger 50-60' boats (and each one seems to be getting bigger), lives on it awhile, sells it, builds and another...all the while spending time between Maine, Florida and the Bahamas. Which...when you think about it, is not a bad gig. Good work if you can get it.....and somehow survive doing it. But again, I suspect he his interests have moved on from working with individuals on building small boats....and I would imagine it's entirely a cost-benefit type thing. Costs him time...for not much benefit. At least that's my take.....and I could be wrong.

As for his Sharpie Book, those are some fabulous looking boats. My first thought was how great it would be if there was someplace you could go where the entire fleet was on hand to look at, and possible sail. Not likely, when you figure the cost-benefit of that one!

And in his book, he included a table of offsets for the various designs. Those numbers might be something like: 1-9-7. I don't think he ever says what those are. I'm guessing: feet - inches - 1/8th inches? Is this even close?

[Guest]

I must tell you that most all sharpies or skipjacks, depending on whois doing the naming in the larger hulls, are fairly straight foward to build. A sharpie, as it goes, were normally flat bottoms, and skipjacks had the shallow vee in the bow tapering back to a small of constant deadrise toward the belly of the hull. I can layup almost any of the parker style boats using almost four frames, up to 30 feet, and six up to around 50 foot to get a boat hull started. Now this may also depend on if you build it from plywood or build it from solid stock wood, the lather requiring more frames and heavier jigs.

[Howard]

Yup....Parker claimed that building a Sharpie was as easy as boat building was going to get, and even more so if you used plywood and modern materials like epoxy and deck screws to pull it together. But Graham's designs are easy to build to as well.

Still wondering about those Offset numbers. Is the last of those 3 numbers 1/8th's, or what?

Ken...whatever became of the stalled out Cedar Keys 22?

[Guest]

There is a lot of ifs to your statement linking Parker boats to B&B boats. First off, the bottom configuration dictates if sheet plywood can be used, as in some of his more pronounced vee entry in the short run aft, which requires small segments of plywood laminated together on a diagaonal and the beam of the boat in general. As far as the numbers, I cannot answer in good faith without seeing the numbers, but have a good idea that its in increments in the ten sequence to the inch of the last number. What is the interest in the design? Are you serious about doing one of his boats? There are other plans around that are simular in design.

[Stump]

Usually yes, the off-sets go feet, inches and 1/8 inches, unless otherwise noted. So in your example the measurement would be 1 foot, 9 inches and 7/8ths of and inch.

[Guest]

Here is a simple boat for you and a website that will allow you to see step by step the construction of this sharpie. This is almost the same principle with a bit more involved for a larger one.

http://www.stompingground.com/users/jclayton/nis18/nis01.shtm

[Ken_Potts]

Howard,

The boat was being built in my back yard. I should have been selling my house instead of building the boat. During that period I was trying to reduce the crime in my neighborhood (there's only so much you can take) and I got on the wrong side of the gang that controls the area. There was an episode in 2001 that made me decide to move (immediately). Arguably I won that battle (gunfight) by surviving unscathed but I lost the war (I lost the house and they kept their territory). There were too many of them and not enough of me. I decided to retreat, lick my wounds and enjoy the rest of my life.

The boat was out in the back yard and uncovered when I evacuated and it still is today so it's probably in pretty bad condition. The good news is I was building it out of the cheapest (A/C Ply) materials available so I didn't lose much... Also in retrospect I think the boat would have been a bit topheavy because I modified the plans to include a cabin that was probably too high.

Anybody wanna buy a cozy little mill house? It's walking distance from the Historical District and it has a fixer-upper boat in the back yard...

[Howard]

Oyster:

Not really trying to equate Parker's and B&B boats, except that Parkers' rendition of Minocqua and the Pricess boats both appear to to have V-bottoms, external ballast shoe, etc. as compared to Parker's other sharpies that have the flat bottoms. Other than general shape, there probably isn't much similarity.

I note that most of Parker's Sharpie designs shown in his book (and that's all I'm familiar with) have low freeboard and low topsides (not much headroom at all), and most are offshoots of working boats from 100 years ago. Recreational boats to be sure, but still adapted from working boats where form followed function. His bigger boats appear to be adapted or optimized as cruising designs, but still very traditional in look.

Graham's boats are all more modern in design and I think were concieved and designed as shallow draft performance sailing boats...the larger of them with cruising potential.

As for building one....not if I can help it. My interest lies in sailing, not building. Time and skill are both issues. It's going to take me about 8 months to build and finish my Spindrift. I can't imagine how long it would take to do a 30 footer. But having said that, I can't imagine how cool it would be to go cruising on a boat you had built yourself. Not many folks can say they have done that.

The stage I'm in now is still discovery.....I want a shallow draft crusing boat that is rugged and yet will perform well. Now that I know about the various sharpie designs, I'm trying to sort them all out to which one suits me best, or which is available I can live with. To help with the decision proces, I'd like to quit looking at lines on paper and start looking at completed boats floating on the water, ergo my interest in finding and maybe getting the chance to sail a replica of Minocqua, Presto, one of Graham's Princess boats, etc. I'd prefer to buy one and go, but if that isn't possible, then it's decision time as to building one.

As for those Norwich boats, Parker included that design in the Addena of his Sharpie book as a modern alternative design.

I do notice that the Norwich boats, along with B&B's Princess boats do appear to have more freeboard and higher topsides than the traditonal boats.

Ken: Tough neighborhood! All problems are relative, and mine, in relation to that, are trivial.

Howard

[Guest]

One thing you should understand is that many of the flat bottom low freeboard hulls were for one specific reason. The bottom was for shallow water and the freeboard served two main purposes. The higher the freeboard, the more windage you have when working crab pots and oyster tongs in multiple weather conditions. The flat bottom was for working in shallow waters and the simplicity of building of the boats. Now people want room in their boats, which is hard to acheive in hulls around 20 foot without taking a lot of the low freeboard away from it. This does away wiith some of the traditional looks of the skipjacks and sharpies of old time.

You are looking at two different hulls when you get past thirty feet as to the more open waters that the boats were working and that was part of the reason for the "deadrise" style boats, semi vee in the bow tapering off the the flatter surface for stability when working and for planning ability too, as just the highlighted reasons for the bottom configuation.

The Parker boats were more for looks and simplicity of building, in my opinion, speaking off the cuff, as I have never spoken to Reul myself. Each and every plan seller, and even production builders in fiberglass hulls, all go through periods or trend of what sells during a certain period of time.

I think if you have spent anytime following plan sellers, the boats have become larger in length as people are looking ofr alternatives to the plastic fantastics cookie cutter boats and the huge amounts of costs involved in the initital purchase of them. Yes it takes some time to build but its more for therapy, satisifaction , and having something different than your neighbor.

You will find that there are some small craft builders that will build a hull and it will take over a year for people that do it full time or at least part time as I do it. There are so many varibles in doing epoxy plywood, or soild wood one offs with weather drying times dictating a fair amount of down time. When I build, I normally have two projects going at the same time, to minimize the down time that is involved in these boats. I am jiging up for 22 Princess now, that will not launch till at least this time next summer.

Have you considered buying a bare hull and fiinish it up yourself? That cuts a lot of the uncertainty down in the initial shock of learning and the time and money require sometimes to pay for your "college education, so to speak. . As far as finding a bunch of these type hulls sitting in one place, forgetaboutit. When you do really decide that you are aready, and if you are willing to take some time to travel, at the time its possible to find most any type hull to take for a sail. There is a Princess about 20 minutes from me that is completed and the owner has stated that he would be willing to go for a sail for the other buyer of the 22, which will be modifed by Graham into more of a semi open day sailer.

[Kidd]

Have you looked at the various cape cod cat boat designs from Ted Brewer? They Have a draft of just over 2 feet and range in size from I think 18 feet to 25 feet. Might be worth looking at for your application.

[Howard]

Oyster:

I have exchanged some email with Rod, and the bottom line is he has been in contact with Mr. Parker...and still is. Rod has commissioned RP to draw him some lines of what he is calling a Presto 34. I asked if he intended to build it and he wasn't sure. I came away with the impression he simply liked the looks of the boat and has purchased himself a $1,000 plus piece of one-of line art for his wall. He also mentioned sending about 15 emails and 4 or 5 phone calls.....and to me that equates to time and when you work for yourself as RP does, time = money. You may do it for awhile, but eventually, you move on and leave the guy with his drawing and dreams.

Having read the Sharpie book a few times, and your comments, I think the deal with Parker was he really likes the shallow draft sharpie style of boat, likes traditional wooden boats and the traditional way of building them, vs. the plastic tubs. He simply thinks they are better boats. Aside from long term maintenance issues of wood, he may be right. I also think he wrote the book and modified the plans to document the styles and construction techniques....if not for builders, for posterity. Maybe now they won't get lost. My 83 year old dad just did the same thing, writing a history of the one room country schools in the county where he and my mother grew up.

But as for those boats, he says he intended for them to be replicas of working boats, slighly modified here and there for ease of construction, or to drop some feature of work boat function in favor of pleasure boat performance or ease of construction. I do like em all.

Again, my interest in this is in finding one of these Sharpies that will work as a cruising boat so I can take my trip. I don't mind building it, but don't want this to become a project I work on for 5 years and never get around to sailing her because I quit or am no longer physically up to it.

I think that I need to promote is a layup party. Kinda like when the Amish needed a barn, all the neighbors pitched in and they built a barn in one day. I need to get you, and several others of your skill level all in one place and in a week or two we crank out a boat....or at least the shell of a boat that I can then finish myself in a few months time.

Anybody want to sign on for a Princess 26 layup party?

BTW...Oyster...what part of the world are you located? I may have some time in the next month or so to travel. I'd like to see that Princess 22.

[Guest]

Your reply is a very nice read and when I have more time in the evening I will reply accordingly. But what I am about to say, I do not mean any harm or malice to you.

This below comment is a bit off base and actually shows that you do not yet understand what is involved in building a tape and glue-stitch and glue or cold moulded hull, however you may decribe this type construction no matter what design you may choose in the future:

think that I need to promote is a layup party. Kinda like when the Amish needed a barn, all the neighbors pitched in and they built a barn in one day. I need to get you, and several others of your skill level all in one place and in a week or two we crank out a boat....or at least the shell of a boat that I can then finish myself in a few months time

There is a lot of fitting and truing up, that goes into one of these hulls, that equates to thought time and down time with the drying of the components, just to name a cople of things. This is not a bang together wall section and cover it up kind of deal, especially if you wish product to be worth a darn to more than just window dressing to the average guy driving past the boat in your yard. One thing that you cannot do is to have thirty supervisors on site for something like . Good idea on paper though...

[Howard]

No offense at all. I learned a long time ago to respect the advice of folks who have been there and done it. I seek them out to get advice. My dad said the same thing as you when he retired and started his hobby of making furniture. He did a great job but was very slow at it. Spent a great deal of time looking and thinking. I compare this with paid construction people (and my sister) who spend very little time thinking....they just whip out the hammers, saws and go. Doesn't look all that hot sometimes, but they do crank out some work.

No....my layup party idea was more tongue in cheek than serious. Having spent close to 6 months now on the Spindrift, I know all too well what goes into building one of these. Everything from spending a few hours sorting through piles of lumber and walking away empty handed to the several times when my family has found me just looking at the boat. I'm thinking things through....they think I'm zoning out or just nuts. Not to mention the frustration of measuring 3 and 4 times, cutting carefully and finding that somehow you are still off too much to be happy with, so you do it again. Or worse yet, leave it, knowing it's not right and then regretting the hidden flaws you know are there, but nobody else can see.

But if you do it right, and it looks and performs as expected....there is a personal satisfaction in doing it yourself. I know I think much more of my fireplace mantle and china cabinet that my father built than any commercial product I could have purchased. It's simply not the same.

But having built the Spindrift, I'm in a better position to start a project like this than I was. I do know, however, that some skilled help in the beginning to help get her layed up right would help move things along so she would get finished in a reasonable amount of time. There is no substitue for experience.

Howard

[Howard]

PS: What part of the country is that Princess in? Hopefully somewhere near North Carolina. I've got friends and family scattered all the way from the Chesapeake to Wilmington, and may have time to come visit them in the next month or so.

[Guest]

But having built the Spindrift, I'm in a better position to start a project like this than I was. I do know, however, that some skilled help in the beginning to help get her layed up right would help move things along so she would get finished in a reasonable amount of time.

Upon further review, I am not sure if further discussion will sway you one way or the other or teach you much that will help speed you along with a project that may have a time frame on it. There are a few people that have as many hours in the spindrift as they will in a cs17 hull even with some limited knowledge.

This was one of the problems with discussing a medium size project with Rob when he first came to find interest in Parker's boats too. As noted, a lot of e-mails took place and at this time two years later, the building of one boat is the same upon the first mail. I see this all the time. In business its called demishing returns. There is not one boat that is the perfect boat, and habits and requirements change , as a rule of thumb for most interested parties, every two and a few months years. When it takes two years to figure it out, you are normally right back to where you were in the beginning, confused and have spent a lot of time with not much more than a bunch of expensive wallpaper. There are just some folks that make it a second job to pick experienced peoples brain as a mental excersize, sometimes for sure. Good luck.

Yes I am on the mainland of the southern part of the outer banks of North Carolina, around thirty minutes from the ferry south bound. .

[Greg Luckett]

I recently got "The Sharpie Book", by Reuel B. Parker. It is an excellent book on the sharpies, well written and well illustrated.

[Garry]

In case you haven't seen it, Graham is working on the design for a Princess 28 for me. I am trying to achieve pretty much the same goals as Howard. I am very excited and want to consider anyone's comments.

I have started several threads on the B&B Yachts Forum at:

Princess 28 Design considerations -

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4544&highlight=

Princess 28 accommodations -

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4547&highlight=

Building a 1:12 scale Princess 28 -

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4606&highlight=

Princess 28 Model continued -

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4643&highlight=