Lazy Old Jack

[Tim Diebert]

Has anyone added Lazy Jacks rather than a Topping Lift to their rig?

If so......what was your connection at the boom?

This is my plan so far....

Fixed to the mast head starboard side, down to the under side of the boom about 2/3rd's aft of the goose neck, back up to a pulley on the port side of the masthead and down to the base of the mast and off to where I normally belay my topping lift.

The reason I ask about the fitting at the boom is I am loose footed and the main sheet stuff is around there as well.

Curious to see how other folks have tackled this.

Oh, the reason I was thinking of going this way is because the idea of being able to drop the main while still sailing down hill appeals to me. If one of those wicked squalls we get around here sneaks up on me again....I won't need to round up to take in sail or douse the main. the Lazy Jacks should keep the gaff in line and all the cloth on board.

I often sail downwind with headsail alone when it pipes up. A relaxing ride.

All the more so now that I have a bigger headsail to play with.

[Dave R1]

Tim, I've got that set up but I've been calling it a topping lift. Mine belays to a cleat on the tabernacle at one end and then comes back to a cleat on the cabin roof on the other. It works very well and does indeed keep the sail under control.

You do need make sure the gaff can't get behind it. Locate it a slight bit closer to the gooseneck than the end of the gaff when it is down. I didn't at first. What a PIA.

The mast-mounted blocks--I used cheek blocks-- should be as far above the gaff jaws as you can put them. Mine aren't and that allows the gaff to fall over the outside on its way down. Another PIA and something I'll be changing this fall.

FWIW, I looked up Topping Lift in An A-Zof Sailing Terms by Ian Dear and Peter Kemp. Here is the description they give.

topping-lift, a rope or flexible wire tackle by which the end of a spar is hoisted or lowered. In yachts a topping-lift is usualy attached at or near the after end of a boom, and takes the weight of the boom while the sail is being hoisted or stowed. Twin topping-lifts may sometimes be rigged so that when the sail is being set, the lift on the lee side can be slacked away clear of the sail, while the weather lift takes the weight of the boom. It has been common practice in the USA for twin topping-lifts to be joined by one or two loops of light line which pass loosely beneath the boom. Known as lazyjacks, these lines prevent the sail from bellying out to leeward as it is being hoisted or lowered. A convenience for a short-handed crew.

Lazy jjacks strung from the topping lifts seem like a great idea but I can't help but shudder at the thought of more lines in the cockpit when the mast is down. It's already a mess. From the description of twin topping lifts it would appear they describe them as belaying on the boom so that they can be individually tensioned. Mine doesn't work that way. I could see the benefit of that but again, another line leading back to the cockpit.

Edited to add: My topping lift currently goes under the boom through the padeye that the forward mainsheet block hangs from. It just rides on the wood. I've been thinking of moving it a tiny bit further aft. I'd also like to figure out a way to reduce the friction. One thing I have considered but not explored is to use a piece of PEX tubing looped around the mast and cut so the line could be run though it. If it was cut right, it could be nailed or screwed to the boom where the lif wouldn't touch it.

A block seems like a difficult thing to rig at that point unless there's a lot of space between the boom and foot of the sail, which I don't have.

[Tim Diebert]

Excellent info, thanks Dave.

[Bill]

I'm not really sure if this helps...but maybe someone could use the info/ideas and work out somthing with it...

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/tamers.htm

Bill

[RussMartin]

Dave and I have corresponded about this, since I plan to have a topping lift and his arrangement looks like the best I

[RussMartin]

. . . and I'm pretty sure we see a topping lift on this one:

http://www.fss.org/slphist.htm

. . . and lazyjacks on this one:

http://www.fss.org/cover2001.jpg

[Tim Diebert]

Thanks for all the help on this one folks. Great links.

Now I am going to think this through.

I have to combine the other rig related projects I have with this one.

[Dave R1]

I knew those big pics of Bill's boat would come in handy one day.

That one sure seems to work well for Bill.

While on the subject of his boat, he did a real smart thing. Since he left the cabin off, he was able to cleat the halyards off at the tabernacle. He doesn't need to have them led back to the cockpit. Well, his cockpit is led forward to the lines. :D

[Dave R1]

Here's an idea for running a single line topping lift under the boom. The ring around the boom would be a piece of polyethylene tubing. It would be cut so the line wouldn't chafe. A couple of small bronze ring nails in the upper ends would keep it in place on the mast.

Just a doodle for consideration.

[John B]

We have twin topping lifts just like that. Then there are some thinner lines spliced in at intervals ( about 3 or 4 in my case)dropping vertically and tied under the boom. When I slack off the toppers the jacks go slack as well and there is no issue with upsetting sail shape. They're tied under the boom so I could adjust the length and get it right.

If you make the point where the topping lifts come to the boom forward of the end of the gaff when its down,then they captivate the gaff when its coming down and don't foul it when its going up.

Actually, I suspect that if you had the toppers set up that way that you'd probably only need one extra line to catch the sail.

[Tim Diebert]

Now we are getting somewhere. Great stuff.

Dave, those images kill me, man. Shading and all. Love it.

The advantages of such a system is obvious.

My main concern at this point is this.

I have a loose footed main and it has a nice big foot roach (if I can call it that). On light days I belly that rascal out and it works well.

On these boats, you share the cockpit with the boom...and in my case, the belly of the foot. (I like to loaf on the lee side)

If I have a jack adjusted so it is not hindering sail shape, then chances are, it will be a noose waiting for a neck, hanging from the boom. Perhaps if the attachment point is well forward...say, at mid companionway hatch...it won't be a factor....?

I use Hardware store line, so what's to lose? I think I might try and rig something up this weekend. My son is coming to visit for a few days...I shall commandeer his extra set of hands.

[RussMartin]

Vis-a-vis this discussion, a small light-bulb went on in the back of my head. I rummaged out my Annapolis Book of Seamanship (3rd Rev. Ed., 1999), and sure enough, there on page 42, is a large drawing of a gaff-rigged boat with both topping lift and lazyjacks. (The topping lift is incorrectly identified as one of the lazyjacks.) The drawing does not appear in my 1989 edition.

If there is enough interest, I can either scan or photograph the drawing and post it here.

[kydocfrog]

I once owned a gaff rigged cat (New England, not Hobietype) that had both topping lift and lazy jacks. Russ Martin's two images are right on. The topping lift typically is tied off at the outboard end of the main boom. Mine just ran through a hole and was knotted off on the lower side of the boom. It keeps the boom out of the water while you are trying to recover the halyard that managed to get away from you and end up in the block at the top of the mast...

The lazy jacks are harder to see in the second image, but they are the lines that proceed down from the masthead and they "Y" off into multiple points along the boom. They show faintly on the sail forward of the topping lift. They do that to capture the collapsed sail all along the boom. Only one anchor point won't help the problem of the sail billowing out when you have to drop it rapidly or are just trying not to get tangled up in it after you have shot the dock undersail. They also help, but not much, if you are reduced to having to actually scandalize the main.

[Tim Diebert]

More good info, thanks Mr. Frog. Welcome to this forum.

I have been out sailing a couple of times since this thread started and I brought the topic up.

I sat and thought about the lazy jack idea...pictured it in my mind....and thought it would be quite useful....

But then I decided it would ad at least one more control line and have a distinct effect on sail shape...if not just a wee dimple in the sail. If the jacks are adjusted loose enough not to effect the sail (as I said I am loose footed) shape, then they will be hanging down to some degree....and in the way. I am liking NOT having something else in the way and am weighing the pros and cons. In the meantime, it has been a fun discussion and I have learned a ton, thanks folks.

[RussMartin]

Thanks, kydocfrog, for weighing in on the subject.

Was your topping lift a single line? (Take a quick look back at what Dave and I have been tossing about.)

(Tell everything . . . omit nothing . . . we have ways of making you talk! :twisted: )

[Steve Clutterbuck]

I came across this setup which I think I will be using on my boat. It seems it will act as both topping lift and lazy jacks. It also stows away against the mast when not being used so it shouldn't upset the sail shape.

http://www.tcsn.net/bosun/lazyjack.htm

[kydocfrog]

Russ, to my memory it was a single line from the masthead with one Y branch before the boom. I don't remember it as having a major effect on sail shape since they are rather slack, and since they were fixed, it wasn't another line to control except when rigging up. It's been a while though -- like maybe 20 years... old, I'm feeling old...

(The complexity of rigging that particular boat, particularly getting the stick in and out of her, was what drove me to pay for a bouy on Lake Champlain.)

[Tim Diebert]

My topping lift is a single line. It works very well.

But with a set of jacks in there....I was under the assumption that you would have to have two topping lifts with a set jacks on either side of the sail....otherwise, how would it keep the sail gathered up and in control?

So in the end you would have two control lines...and maybe four.

In my case I could see having the topping lift set, as I use it to support the boom during take down as well as to lift the boom out of the way when motoring or anchored. The jacks would have to be able to be adjusted for sailing and take down (slack) and tightened up when the boom is up and out of the way.

Maybe I am just not getting this....I may be suffering from another dumbness attack.

[Frank Hagan]

A small gaff sail is so easy to dowse and flake on the boom when you have a topping lift that I can't imagine doing too much to try and make it easier. The way I see it, for lazy jacks to be useful they would have to prevent the main from being blown off the boom when you are dowsing the sail, and that means a lot more lines than the simple lazy jack setups I see on those boats with tall triangular sails!