buck Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 I quickly notticed sailing my boat against Wayne's beautifully crafted Weekender how much faster his boat was in light to moderate airs. His has a plywood keel and has been built with good materials (marine ply etc.) It is in my view considerably faster than mine in nearly all points, it is in fact more like a racing dinghy and slips up to full speed in very little time. Its also a delight to sail, my own boat is quite heavy particularly with my floorboards attached (inside to sleep on) with its 3 1/2" cypress keel (the wood merchant took 1" dressed to mean 3cm wide) Now I have no complaints about about my boat, in heavy weather, 15-20 knots I can still singlehand and punch through waves 'like nobody's business', a heavy boat is better in heavy conditions, I don't think I could do the sailing I do if it wasn't built that way. In the same conditions Waynes boat (3 up) Me sitting on the cabin roof, Trica in the cockpit and Wayne at the wheel hurtled along at 6knots, The boat still felt considerably lighter. All of which set me thinking as to how I would build again, Plywood keels aren't without ther problems (screw retention etc.)and Wayne fibreglassed his. But boy does it make a difference! http://www.waynemunro.com/grw/wayne/2004/2004_01/marahau_weekenders/Img_7932b.jpg/view_med_70.html "Pounding! I'll you waves a pounding alright!" Quote
tdrown Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 A keel that is 57% wider than the planes may slow it down. If the boards you used to make your keel were each 3cm then your keel is 3.285cm too wide (assuming that you used 3 boards). It should be 5.715cm (or 2 1/4") wide. Sails might be a greater factor in your speed. Quote
Arnie Eaton Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 A tuned sail rig and good balance is the key to speed. Sail trim is very important as well. I really don't think the keel material will make much difference as to how the boat handles if properly contructed. Quote
Frank Hagan Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 Weight does matter in light airs though. Lighter construction, all other things being equal, means better performance when there is just a slight breeze. Quote
MikeStevenson Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 Okay, Here's where I can add a few semi-worthwhile cents! (No sense, just cents...sorry, the coffee hasn't kicked in well yet.) Weekenders will be fun to sail just about however they're built. If you're going to race them, it will become apparent immediately that lighter ones sail much quicker in normal light airs. We spent quite a lot of time sailing these, in lots of different conditions and with the boats set-up in very different configurations. We invariably lost to Todd Schmit's Drakken as his boat was stripped bare most of the time and was built light to begin with. We traded sails (he had our tarps when we went to Dacron), traded boats, etc. The tarp sails can be an advantage at times as they can be light weight compared to the Dacron. Of course they don't last as long either. We had a very hard time beating our semi-uncle (and actual boat designer) Doug Deeds in any condition: Personal skill has a lot to do with it. I think Peter and my skill was higher than Todd's, though, and he could still beat us in the lighter boat. What does all this mean? You really have to decide how you want to USE your boat. Not how you want to build it, as building things in will add weight (for the most part.) What I'm implying is how you want to sail it. Peter's response to the trends in the last couple of years (to very highly finished boats with very fancy additions to the aesthetic , but with a premium paid in performance) is generally one of admiration for the work involved and the look, but he usually get's a gleam in his eye about how easy it would be to sail rings around any of these boats with a light version. He sometimes gets motivated to toss out the carpet, the cockpit gratings, and particularly the motor system to get the weight back down. Where you sail can determine if you need to have a motor or not also: an area where there's not much problem if you run into trouble (a protected lake or an area like Mission Bay in San Diego where you can just beach the boat and go back to the car to get stuff) means you don't need to worry about having such a back-up system (places where there are a lot of beach cats and little dinghys sailing around). If you're out in the middle of nowhere and/or it's going to be hard to calm things down if there's a problem means you'd better take a motor system. Pretty obvious stuff. The deal is, if it's bolted/screwed down or built in (oak keels), you're not going to be able to strip the boat for race-day. Think about this at least a little while planning your project. If you're not too bothered by coming in behind somebody else, then there's your answer. But if you think you might want to race (and not neccessarily under club rules-we just race informally and still have lots of fun), you may want to keep your options open. All of this brings to mind one of the points Paul Heyse tried to make a few times in the past: What do we do about builders who want to make modifications the other way? (lightweight boats) I would suggest that the bare minimum for club racing be sticking to the plans for the most part. If someone wants to try making a foam-and-carbon version, they're welcome to it, but they'd be making a new design (it might still look the same, but the structure would be a whole new machine and they'd need to test accordingly). I wouldn't mind sailing against them, and it might be a fun challenge, but we'd know we were sailing heavy in the same way a ballasted boat would be disadvantaged against our normal Weekenders. Another note (and this one's fairly important): I don't think plywood keels are a good idea. It's not going to be appreciably (if at all) lighter than a nice light Pine keel, and plywood will have a few very bad things working against it. Plywood does not take screws well on edge (which would be required to screw the keel to the hull bottom), the plywood would be vulnerable to edge damage when beaching or loading the boat on the trailer, the edge damage would leave the plywood in a bad way as regards delamination also. Overall, it's a bad idea, we think, and we would never build a Weekender this way. Okay, rant ends. I think Buck's original post hit on some good points: The heavier boat will ride smoother, and it helps his confidence to have a solid machine. YOU need to build what YOU need. Light is fun if you're not worried about the machine and/or have experience with sailing dinghys. Mike Quote
Konrad in Lincoln Posted January 27, 2004 Posted January 27, 2004 I think it's really great that we have Mike available to chime in. Probably none of us have the man-hours invested in building and sailing the Weekender/Vacationer that Mike and his family do. So... thanks! Quote
MikeStevenson Posted January 28, 2004 Posted January 28, 2004 -blush-Thanks Konrad! We do have quite a bit of Weekender experience, but less so with the Vacationer. I wish we'd kept it now, but we were out of space at the time. What I remember of the Vacationer was sure nice. I'm looking forward to sailing on one this summer if there's one around. I suspect you have more Vacationer time than we do now. Mike Quote
buck Posted January 28, 2004 Author Posted January 28, 2004 Thanks for your valuable comments, One thing I must point out is how much I enjoyed sailing both boats, its great to compare. I will concede Wayne's hull is somewhat smoother than mine in places. One thing that I notticed about both boats is how quickly they accelerate on a reach. In a moderate puff you can go from standstill to full tilt in just a few seconds. Quote
waynemunro Posted January 29, 2004 Posted January 29, 2004 hey Buck, I don't think the finishes on the two boats were all that different, mine is not all that smooth due to being lazy sanding the glass. I suspect the weight may be the key, we'll have to figure out a way of weighing them to see just what the difference is. I visited Robbo last week, he is coming along well.. he's almost at the seat and rubrail stage.. looking nice though. Wayne Quote
waynemunro Posted January 29, 2004 Posted January 29, 2004 Hey Mike, yeah, landsailing is a blast.. I have not built a vector, but I do own a fold up mini-landyacht. It is quite a different sport to water sailing the speeds are just a bit greater, last weekend one of the guys I was sailing with clocked 75kph, damn scary when your head is not far from the ground. I'm attaching some pictures of the kart that I own, it is quite cool and packs away in a small bag small enough to fit into a small car boot, and weighs about 25kg. (vector is probably lighter than that I guess) The blo-karts are pretty cool and there is an increasing following of them here - nine arrived at the first local meeting of them here last weekend. The beaches here are quite good, though the wind and tides are not often right together. We have just started using an excellent site on a dry lake bed about 1/2 an hour from home, huge area, dead flat and completely exposed to all winds.. so going to be getting some more karting in this year for sure. [attachment over 4 years old deleted by admin] Quote
MikeStevenson Posted January 29, 2004 Posted January 29, 2004 Wow, 47mph is damn fast...Looks like fun. We used to have the big lateen rigs, so we'd top out at 35-40mph. The new windsurfer rigs like you have look like they'd be good fo a bunch more speed. The Vector is probably twice the weight of your Blokarts, but you do get the advantage of being able to hike out on them and a cockpit if you don't need to hike out. And we ran two people once in awhile on the beach in Mexico (me in the cockpit and a very light person on the wing Quote
Mike Pennington Posted January 30, 2004 Posted January 30, 2004 Buck or Wayne, Is there a difference in the rake of your masts? Does Wayne's tilt back a few degrees more? Mike, I will have the chance to sail with John and Mark this summer in there Weekenders. I am really looking forward to this time. I expect we will be able to compare my Vacationer's performance with the Weekender. Which may decide wether I build a Weekender for my wife and her sailing friends. There good boats that's a fact and I bless the day I sent off for my plans. Quote
waynemunro Posted January 30, 2004 Posted January 30, 2004 that is quite possible actually, I have not thought to look, but I think when I was building mine was a few degrees back of what it was supposed to be. will have to have a better comparison the next time they are beside each other. some of the pictures with the two boats looking like they are floating near one another are a little deceptive as they are both resting on their keels a bit as the water is on the way out. And I think bucks is leaning to the left while mine is leaning to the right.. and with the camera angle not coming from exactly at right angles that may affect the apparent mast angle. Quote
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