It will break Frank's one rule, but I have to say it....

[Konrad in Lincoln]

Frank, delete it if you must, it won't hurt my feelings, but...

WE GOT HIM, DAMMIT!!!

The rest of planet earth is a bunch of spineless, hand-wringing, pillow-biting cowards. But we did what had to be done, and Spain, Germany (my own heritage), France, and the rest of them can all stick it in their ass.

There, I said it.

Delete away, it was mostly just the satisfaction of being able to actually type this.

[Tim Diebert]

Sad sad sad....it will never end. Revenge, power and greed rule the world.

[Frank Hagan]

As long as this doesn't degenerate into name calling between or about the members of messing-about.com, the thread can stay.

Konrad: one correction ... Spain is one of countries who supported the US efforts, at a great cost to their Prime Minister's political reputation, and Spanish lives have been lost as recently as two weeks ago:

Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar has assured US President George W Bush of his continued support for joint military operations in Iraq following the deaths of seven Spanish intelligence agents there' date=' the White House said.

[/quote']

How Saddam's capture can be viewed by anyone as a bad thing, I don't know. Top French-wimp Chirac has said he is "delighted" that Saddam is captured, as did German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder. So even those most opposed to the war see this as a good thing. Saddam was a brutal dictator who forged economic alliances with free countries like France and Germany; we've had our own "rouge's list" of friends too. So part of their hesitancy is understandable.

But we all can see Saddam is one of the truly bad guys, and his capture and trial by his countrymen will be a signal that things have indeed changed. Perhaps now we're one step closer to a free and democratic Iraq.

Here's the difference between what we did and what Saddam did in the past: Saddam wasn't shot dead in his hole, and he wasn't brutalized and dragged through the streets. He was captured, and, hopefully, will be tried by an Iraqi court. He is getting fair treatment, as fair as anyone gets anywhere in the world. And much more fair than he gave any one during his reign.

Surely, no one can object to a fair trial for a mass murderer? Not even Chirac and Schroeder object.

[Guest]

Thanks to all the collective men and women, in uniform, non uniform men and women in plain clothes uniforms, families of men and women in uniform, the men and women that have paid the ultimate sacrifice, in this latest mission this year, and finally a real commander-in-chief, on this just another mission accomplished, just another battle in this war. I give them all my high fives, from my fingers in type.

[Konrad in Lincoln]

It would seem the majority of the English and Spanish didn't support us.

So they get included on the sh*t list.

Amazing, the citizens of Iraq are dancing in the streets in joy, and celebrating with gunfire, and people like Tim *still* don't get it.

Put YOUR politics aside and be happy for THEIR liberation for just a moment, won't you?

[Tim Diebert]

Me.....MY politics? I am as far from a political person as a person can be.

I believe nothing I hear from any politician or government person.

I don't really like being lied to.

I am very happy for all the folks that wanted this guy caught. Specially the people in his own country.

From my vantage point aggression breeds aggression and it will never stop. In any situation large or small.

I think perhaps some countries should bring their kids home and find a way to defend their own country and stay away from wanting to control other peoples lives.

Also, I am the last person that should even have an opinion on this topic. I stopped watching TV years ago. I have very little info but what I pick up from web based boards such as this....and I tend to just laugh at or ignore most of that. So all I have is one dumb Canucks opinion.

I think all you lads should come to my place, we will all smoke a joint, sit around the fire and chill. Maybe have a good Canadian beer or two.

[tdrown]

Sad sad sad....it will never end. Revenge, power and greed rule the world

Capturing Saddam is not about any of those. Believe what you will about the motives of the war, but most Americans I would say are happy they have Saddam because it might mean less attacks on our soldiers and a smoother transition to an independent Iraqi government. This is the man who tried to assassinate a former president, gased thousands of his citizens, tortured political prisoners, et cetera. As an American I would say I am appreciative of Spain, the UK, Poland, and Italy's help, despite popular opinion against the decision there. Hopefully this development will lead to a more peaceful peace.

[Guest]

HUSH!!!HUSH!! I hear something, sounds like music to my ears. Yep, it that old familiar sound being played for us today. The blast from the past, Can you name that tune????????

"In the Jungle, the mighty jungle,

The lion sleeps tonight,

But in a army cot, probably,

instead of a dirt floor. :wink:

[Frank Hagan]

Well, I can't help hearing this song over and over in my head:

"Ding Dong! The Witch is dead.

Which old Witch? The Wicked Witch!

Ding Dong! The Wicked Witch is dead.

Wake up - sleepy head, rub your eyes, get out of bed.

Wake up, the Wicked Witch is dead.

She's gone where the goblins go,

Below - below - below.

Yo-ho, let's open up and sing and ring the bells out.

Ding Dong' the merry-oh, sing it high, sing it low.

Let them know

The Wicked Witch is dead! "

Except I guess it doesn't fit, because he's not dead, just captured. And Iraq no longer has a death penalty, so unless they decide to do an ex-post-facto thing and make a retroactive death penalty, he'll be kept alive.

An international trial might be in order after the Iraqi trial, so that he can be kept in isolation out of the region (Spandau's empty, isn't it?)

[Tim Diebert]

The rest of planet earth is a bunch of spineless, hand-wringing, pillow-biting cowards. But we did what had to be done, and Spain, Germany (my own heritage), France, and the rest of them can all stick it in their ass.

So you are telling me that the whole of the US armed forces had to be deployed to another country on the other side of the world to oust a dictator? So THAT'S why you all are there? Thanks for clearing it up for me. I was curious.

Your quote may pretty much sum up how you might feel, but I will be a Canadian and assume that all Americans don't feel the way you do and are not all like you.

And if you had not noticed it, your statement is inflamitory and childish. I resent what you have called me and everyone else on the planet other than the Blessed American folks, as I am one of the non believers.

You want me to be happy for the capture of Saddam? I am. The guy is a bad as they come (if what I have been lead to believe is true) and it is great he is out of business. Truly wonderful.

The rest of your statement is what I am not happy about....and it is sad sad sad.

Conrad, you know there are people from 'the rest of planet earth' on this board and you expected them to lay down and listen to your words....and take it? It don't work that way tough guy.

I prefer that folks who feel the need to insult me...do it in the same room as me.

[ken connors]

hey, lets not jump to the gun. we havent yet had time to investigate each individual circumstance of the tens of thousands of iraquis found in the mass graves. do you not believe in these graves, tim. violence doesnt always beget violence. a harsh reality is that sometimes violence stops violence. of course this isnt something one would want to consider while toking on a fattie, could kill the the buzz. ps, just cuz we disagree on this, i still respect you and your right to your opinion.

[Frank Hagan]

<introspective mode ON>

Must be losing my touch ... had to delete two posts out of this thread, and suspend a new member. But he was a trouble-maker, and war doesn't always bring out the best in people anyway, so maybe I'm OK.

<introspective mode OFF>

I think if I'm going to have to quit reading these posts for enjoyment, and start thinking about the impact each one has on others, I need something in compensation.

I'm thinking a new title. "Site Dictator" has a nice ring to it, but is kind of plain. Maybe "Imperial Potentate," or better yet, "Most Imperial Potentate." And a hat. All the best dictators have a cool hat.

So until I can find a cool hat and appoint myself "Most Imperial Potentate" ... and I'm thinking that title just might need something like a scepter to go with it, so I need to find a penguin holding a scepter for a new logo ... can we rachet it down a little?

Our One Rule

[Guest]

The guy is a bad as they come (if what I have been lead to believe is true) and it is great he is out of business. Truly wonderful.

Certainly some folks, of more intelliegence, and knowledge, seem to know a lot more than me or you, it appears. Congress, for the last four to five years voted to support force, including our previous leader, for eight years. Senate majority leaders stood before a podium in support of force, in 1998. 70 percent of my fellow Americans have been made to believe the stuff is true. 18 resolutions to rebuke this former leader of Irag, by the United Nations have been made to believe the stuff is true. Somewhere around 20 plus nations, from around the world have been made to believe the stuff is true. 300,000 blindfolded skulls in mass graves, bodies tied to post and eliminated by a single bang have pursuaded me that its true. Sorry, but what the heck, I am a groupie. I believe it is and was all true. Just can't help myself. :wink:

[Frank Hagan]

I'm hoping I can do this without inflaming anyone. But I think I know what Tim's point might be (and Tim, don't hesitate to correct me if I've misread you ... I'm still looking for the hat and scepter, so its still safe).

We didn't go to Iraq just to get rid of a bad guy. Its really not that altruistic. We went there because, by a clear majority, our Congress felt we had American self interests in the region that were threatened by this particular bad guy. He supported terrorism with cold hard cash, violated our agreement with him on a nearly daily basis by firing at our planes and trying to kill our servicemen enforcing the no-fly zones established by international law. His stated intent was to rule the region, and boasted that when he did, he could bring our country to its knees economically. Everyone, including the French and the Germans, thought he had the WMDs that we now think were perhaps a mirage, even to Saddam. So it was our self-interest that drove us. "Its all about oil!" some of the detractors say, but those of us who remember the gas lines of the '70s realize that "its only oil" is a little like saying "its only food."

I happen to think that the only reason we should conduct a war is to protect our own interests ... not for nation building. Now it just so happens that sometimes there is a wonderful combination, where our interests also coincide with bonus stuff, like taking down a bad guy, stopping him from slaughtering innocents, and spending our tax money over the next 5 - 8 years to try and stabilize the area and bring some human rights there.

But if we didn't have the original American self interest in it, we shouldn't do it. That's what I felt was wrong about our involvement in Bosnia. Milosevich was another bad guy, but there was no American self interest in our being involved.

Africa has a few bad guys just like Saddam, but we don't go there en masse because we don't have a national interest in doing so. That is what the UN is for, those situations like Liberia and Bosnia, where the international community is better equipped to handle the intervention. We shouldn't spend American lives when American interests are not at stake. And neither should any other country.

People being free, having human rights, and living in democracies that recognize the rights of the minorities as well as the majorities, dovetail well into our own self-interest in that region. It is a good combination. Good for them, and good for us. Its why we feel good about the Butcher of Baghdad being in custody.

[thebob]

It would seem the majority of the English and Spanish didn't support us. So they get included on the sh*t list.

It would also seem that the majority of US citizens didn't support it either, so put your self on your own "sh*t list".

I'm British, I also happen to be English, but why you singled out one of the countries in our kingdom is beyond me.

And the Spanish, come on now, I'm totally proud of those guys, considering how the US has treated her allies in the past.

I realize that you are a little exuberant because of the success of the operation but, just a little thought before posting, please.

[thebob]

Frank I hope there was a higher reason.

We didn't go to Iraq just to get rid of a bad guy. Its really not that altruistic. We went there because' date=' by a clear majority, our Congress felt we had American self interests in the region that were threatened by this particular bad guy. [/quote']

I think that the threat went farther than that, this guy not only had a history of warring with his own neighbours, he had attempted to invade a sovereign state.

He supported terrorism with cold hard cash' date=' violated our agreement with him on a nearly daily basis by firing at our planes and trying to kill our servicemen enforcing the no-fly zones established by international law. [/quote']

After he was forcably removed from Kuwait he constantly floughted agreements, and international resolutions. People said "Don't start a war" but this action is stopping a war that has been going on for years.

The peacenics, ignore the fact that every time he targeted allied forces, enforcing the no fly zones, was an act of war.

His stated intent was to rule the region' date=' and boasted that when he did, he could bring our country to its knees economically. Everyone, including the French and the Germans, thought he had the WMDs that we now think were perhaps a mirage, even to Saddam. [/quote']

The WMD are a fact, Frank. Proveably "Chemical Ali" used them on his own people. The weapons inspectors, the first time round, documented thousands of liters of several kinds of banned substances, including shells modified for delivery. That is why he threw them out.

The second time round the mission was not to "find" WMD it was to document what had happened to them. This is the scary part, they could now be in the hands of terrorists, or hidden away somewhere in that huge country.

So it was our self-interest that drove us. "Its all about oil!" some of the detractors say' date=' but those of us who remember the gas lines of the '70s realize that "its only oil" is a little like saying "its only food." [/quote']

The specifics of exactly how he wanted to cripple the world, not just the US, is imaterial, that was his agenda.

I happen to think that the only reason we should conduct a war is to protect our own interests ... not for nation building. Now it just so happens that sometimes there is a wonderful combination' date=' where our interests also coincide with bonus stuff, like taking down a bad guy, stopping him from slaughtering innocents, and spending our tax money over the next 5 - 8 years to try and stabilize the area and bring some human rights there. [/quote']

People forget, peace is not the abscence of war. Peace is something that needs to be fought for. Of course, the business of government is to do what is best for it's citizens. Nothing to do with altruisim. In this case the good of the country (any of the allies) was affected by the consiquences of what would happen to the world as a whole.

But if we didn't have the original American self interest in it' date=' we shouldn't do it. That's what I felt was wrong about our involvement in Bosnia. Milosevich was another bad guy, but there was no American self interest in our being involved.[/quote']

Bosnia is just a question of degree, the potential was there, but it was more of a threat to the Euro's.

Africa has a few bad guys just like Saddam' date=' but we don't go there en masse because we don't have a national interest in doing so. That is what the UN is for, those situations like Liberia and Bosnia, where the international community is better equipped to handle the intervention. We shouldn't spend American lives when American interests are not at stake. And neither should any other country.[/quote']

In a perfect world there would be enough resorces to prosecute these campagins, unfortunately if you look around the world at the N Koreans, the Chineese, ect. It would not be prudent to spread yourself so thin.

People being free' date=' having human rights, and living in democracies that recognize the rights of the minorities as well as the majorities, dovetail well into our own self-interest in that region. It is a good combination. Good for them, and good for us. Its why we feel good about the Butcher of Baghdad being in custody.[/quote']

I do get annoyed about the argument that it is a Muslim problem. There is a small group who have tried to hijack a religion, which is fundamentally, peacefull and caring.

Nobody blames the troubles in N. Ireland on catholic terrorists. Both religions abhoor killing. Most people don't realise that the muslims venerate Christ as a phrophet. They just do not believe that he was the son of god.

Anyway thanks for reading this, I do not mean to annoy anyone, but this is how I see it. Disagree if you like, but please try to do it politely, as I have tried to do.

[Wild_Dingo]

The rest of planet earth is a bunch of spineless' date=' hand-wringing, pillow-biting cowards. But we did what had to be done, and Spain, Germany (my own heritage), France, and the rest of them can all stick it in their ass. [/quote']

Your quote may pretty much sum up how you might feel, but I will be a Canadian and assume that all Americans don't feel the way you do and are not all like you.

And if you had not noticed it, your statement is inflamitory and childish. I resent what you have called me and everyone else on the planet other than the Blessed American folks, as I am one of the non believers.

You want me to be happy for the capture of Saddam? I am. The guy is a bad as they come (if what I have been lead to believe is true) and it is great he is out of business. Truly wonderful.

The rest of your statement is what I am not happy about....and it is sad sad sad.

Conrad, you know there are people from 'the rest of planet earth' on this board and you expected them to lay down and listen to your words....and take it? It don't work that way tough guy.

I prefer that folks who feel the need to insult me...do it in the same room as me.

My sentiments exactly Tim

So quickly the US forgets its allies... so quickly its almost disgusting... point of fact Konrad is that Britain and Australia have been there in the feild of this so called war on terror since the start and are still there!!... In fact if memory serves rightly it was Australian SAS forces who were on the ground first {yes even before US troops} in that other recently seemingly forgotten feild of the war on terror Afganistan...

So Im gonna add my two bobs worth as a member of the rest of the world and tell you to st... nah I at least respect Franks one rule even if you find it impossible you arrogant... ahem oops? :? Its a damned hard rule to stick to at this moment Frank!! :roll:

Consideration for others is a worthy thing... respecting others even more so... condemning your allies as "a bunch of spineless, hand-wringing, pillow-biting cowards" is nothin less than disgusting and surely cause for censure of the poster if nothing else?

[Guest]

Shane who gets the blame for doing anything at all in this matter? The answer is two words, United States. It has always been the policy to strike back in defense of attacks, both personally and militarily. In this matter, of Irag, the U.S. funds the bulk of these matters, good or bad, and the buck stops with the U.S.. So in response to the matter of no one thinks about the allies, think again with the criticism of England from around the world. This two countries gets all of the press. This makes this one Hemerican sensitive to attacks by people from around the world.

I will ask the same question here, that I have ask in other forums, since the timing is right now. Where was all of this criticism, during the going it alone in Bosnia, goiing it alone in Somalia, and the going it alone with the Tomahawk missles into Bagdad in 1998? i don't care to rehash a lot of ifs whats and whys, but this is my biggest complaint, when I hear and read people from other nations question of actions now. This is my single most complaint, into the actual desent of other individuals from both this land and other nations of the world. Where are the questions directed at France, Germany, and Russia, of the apparent cooperation with the Iragi Dictator? I will be civil in this matter. But these are questions that remain unanswered to this day by opponents of this matter, U.S. vs the world.

Thanks to all of the joint forces involved in this matter. Could this be the war that ends all wars? Nope, Iran, Syria, the PLO, North Korea, China, and a few rogue nations will determine this matter, also.

[thebob]

So in response to the matter of no one thinks about the allies' date=' think again with the criticism of England from around the world. This two countries gets all of the press. This makes this one Hemerican sensitive to attacks by people from around the world. [/quote']

Oyster this is not a "no one thinks about the allies" thing, the thread started dissing US allies because of the perception that population of these countries was anti war. There is no real way to gauge this. The way that the news is reported, where I am in the world, the US population seems anti war.

I will ask the same question here' date=' that I have ask in other forums, since the timing is right now. Where was all of this criticism, during the going it alone in Bosnia, going it alone in Somalia, and the going it alone with the Tomahawk missles into Bagdad in 1998? i don't care to rehash a lot of ifs whats and whys, but this is my biggest complaint, when I hear and read people from other nations question of actions now. [/quote']

Cant quite get the grievance here, if the news that you had access to reported criticism of past actions then it would be OK now? Of course there were people against those actions but it wasn't big news at the time so it didn't get reported.

This is my single most complaint' date=' into the actual desent of other individuals from both this land and other nations of the world. Where are the questions directed at France, Germany, and Russia, of the apparent cooperation with the Iragi Dictator? I will be civil in this matter. But these are questions that remain unanswered to this day by opponents of this matter, U.S. vs the world. [/quote']

I cant quite see why, weather or not France, Germany, and Russia were complicit with the Iraqis would justify that kind of attack on U.S. allies.

Finishing with U.S. vs the world is just plain inflammatory. If you really champion the attitude, that the whole world is against your country, you are undermining the the hard work that your government has done, to avoid this exact perception. And are working against not only your own government but mine as well.

[Tom Holder]

Gentlemen,

I believe this is an argument that no one can win. I've learned my lesson in a previous thread. There are always going to be doves and hawks in the world. There also will be a great many people in the middle who will blindly follow the shiniest light.

All I would like to interject is that it is important that each of us makes a careful evaluation of situations such as this and makes a decision based on our own morals and values. Then by living our lives true to ourselves and setting an example, we can begin to influence others.

History will judge this time better than we can whilst living in the middle of it. Our children's children will debate who was right and who was wrong long after we are gone.

I am a small man and cannot be happy or proud about this particular war or any of the events in the last 50 years leading up to it. I admit that freely and understand that others differ.

However I am very happy for all those involved - Iraqis, Americans, all nations, all races - that the beginning of the end has finally come and we can once again return to more noble pursuits than war and terrorism.

Love and kindness to my family, my friends, my enemies and to those I have not met yet.

Happy holidays.

Tom Holder