Maria CS20 104

Understatement in not nearly satisfying, "Graham You Old Sea Dog", AMAZING. Id love to add a three foot SUgar Scoop to the back end of the CS 20 104 and five foot bow sprit for a small spinaker but my wife would hold a Viking Funeral with my body in the boat and burning the whole of our boat in the swimming pool, with guests watching, and probably rightly so since she has had so much patience. That boat is awesome and I love the forward slope of the forward cabin. Not much head room but it is a weather shelter and sleeping hidey hole and place to warm coffee, tea, and other beverages as apropriate, I suspect. How was the sugar scoop put together, and could an almost complete CS 20 be modified to accomodate the altercation? AWESOME Boat, absolutely beautiful, look forward to a hundred pics. Jim A

Thanks so MUCH, my wife always tells me I over think the process and ponder too much. I know it won't be under water but I think like the submariner that I am when it comes to interface with water. The Bow Eye is 304 SS and should hold up to exposure. Just overthinking the project and like the rear seat stringers and beams which are about double the size, I put a beam on the inside of the boat for a grab and added a curved corner block to enhance "grabability" for anyone over the side for a swim or a mistake. Looks a lip along the rear seat that I installed. I am still thinking about installing stern eyes at the corner blocks for safety lines I can throw out in the case of a man-over-board event. My son and I are looking at Lake Fontania in NC to learn to fly and in the summer of 2011 we plan to put into Pemlaco (sp) Sound and sail to Jacksonville and then onto Cocoa Beach, intercoastal and open water along the way. Just anticipating needs and preventative stuff in advance, which does sometimes slow progress. Too much pondering at times. I dream about this boat on open water and all the things needed and that will be appreciated when that time comes. I will take your advice on the Bow Eye and coat the holes thoroughly, and while still green, coat the shanks and insert for set up. I will probably still cover with thickened epoxy inside and out with a strip of fiberglass or two to tie it in and blend to the bow line. Thanks again for the input. Jim A

Bow Eye Installation HELP? Okay Experts and experiance amatures, I will be installing this little piece of hardware this weekend and I need some input from my betters who have done this before, especially since I will be putting a few holes in the people tank. Here is my idea: forgive me in advance for being ignorant and missing any important detail. PLAN: I will install a hardwood backing block made of oak approximately 8" long and fitted to the interior with thickened epoxy and fiberglassed in. The threaded shanks are 3/8", I want to drill 1/2" holes for installation and clean sawdust and slivers and then coat inside of holes with epoxy to seal all wood, couple to three coats of epoxy and let cure. Once epoxy is set, I'll ream out for a little extra clearance and kinda snug fitting of the Bow Eye. Next, I plan to mix fiber glass fibers with plumbers putty, ensuring penty of fiber and enough putty to compress between the mounting plates on the outside and inside. Wrapping the threaded shafts with the putty fiber mixture I'll install and compress together between plates and when done, I plan to cut off the extra threaded shanks just above the nuts. Onces filed down and threaded shafts de-burred, I'll clean with Acetone and then I intend to coat inside and outside plates with thickened epoxy and fiberglass tape over and put two to three coats of epoxy, especiall on the outside to ensure the plates are covered and sealed against elements. Now, seriously, what is worng with my idea? I think I have complicated this a bit much and you folks are probably giggling a bit and probably rightly so. Better and Quicker and other ideas are WELCOME. Help and thanks as always. Jim Atkinson

Hey all, the CS 20 104 is coming along, tok a break during the bad heat and worked in the house on several projects like floors, cabinets, walls and misc. stuff that took a lot of time. I am looking for info on what is recommended for fairing the hull, how long should it sit before sanding, when does it become a heart break to sand and how long is the final cure time? We are working on the centerboard trunk and have glassed the inside trunk surfaces and will be putting it together this next week and while it cures we will be working on the deck framing and seat tops. Focus is to be done on the hull by the end of the month of September incluind fairing, epoxy, base paint and finished coats. Keep us in your prayers. I am working alone as Mom is going to NC near Highlands to take care of her mother. They'll be back at the end of the month and I expect it will reduce boat time by a bit more than I'd like. Oh well, get working when the time is available and no interuptions can cause stops 5 times a day. Thanks for the input, Jim

It is Joubert and it cost a lot, $87 for 1/4 and $98 for 3/8. We are drying out with fans and hot weather and hope to be able to coat with epoxy tommorrow but wife ot good cover on it and fan blowing for dry out as we are quite humid, I really hope it works out but will prodceed with whatever happens and hope for the best, thanks Jim

I just weighed my unplaned centerboard made of old growth walnut and hickory, it comes in at 23 pound but I am sure it will still float. I will plane and sand about 40% off the board I am sure based on sanding down of the the rudder. I like the idea of a "negative" buoyant board. A negatively buoyant item (to me) is that it is an item that sinks and to some extent I want that. but I also want it to sink only until it reaches neutral buoyancy around the full extent of it's reach, or close to it. Negative buoyancy is a term used by us submarine riders, it keeps us able to get to the deep quick or as needed, but there is a balance we never want to exceed. I would think having the board "floating" just at the fullest extent of it's reach would be ideal, it's just a matter of displacement which will be based on weight and density of materials used. I would think I'll have to add 8 to 12 pounds of material to achieve what I want and each person will want something unique to there sailing conditions. It also depends or wether or not you are a fresh water sailor or a salty. I suspect lighter would be better in light winds and heavier would be more appropriate in heavy wether and winds especially better than seas of four feet and winds of 15 plus knots. I would also think that it really depends on sailing conditions for each local condition, your experiance as a sailor and do you like and enjoy heavy winds and seas. I am planning on sailing both but look forward to some open gulf and Atlantic opportunities were I think I want the full board in play to play. Jim Atkinson

Hey All, been busy, doing some real paying work on the side, resigned about 4 months ago due to political crap, had some offers but want to take all summer and maybe through October off after being fully employeed since I was 14. Nuff of that though. THE QUESTION???? I was working on the centerboard trunk and trimming corners at the aft seating to round off edges and a storm hit like gang busters. I was not paying attention but I had moved my temp shelter some to work on final filleting inside the seat bulkheads and the insides of these bulkheads on the people tank side to bottom of the boat. That was yesterday and minutes ago I Just found about 3/4 inch water in the port forward floatation tank and the wood is discolored to a walnut dark. Now I got flooded before but it did not discolor in the bottom, this happened when first building and knowing it sat for an entire weekend before I discovered it did discolor some and Ihave been able to sand out the discolorization, it was not very deep. Obviously I need to let it dry completey probably a week or more. I am using Okume from Joubert, seems to be forgiving and I sure hope so because we are building the centerboard trunk and I HATE TO DECONSTRUCT or CUT OUT and Patch. Should I expect delamination? Is there something I can do to reduce staining other than sand and paint? Does water in the people tank or side tanks prior to epoxy sealing, reduce final structural integrity or deteriorate the wood or fillets if thorough drying out is achomplished. I thought I'd use kitty litter to help absorbtion but then you've got clay mud and a hell of a mess to clean out and I don't think it could be completely removed as the clay would soak into the wood grain and could cause further complications. I am sure others have ended up with a wading pool and worried about this and Hope you can give me and other insight to complications short term and long term and possible recommendations. Thanks. Grandbabies both bys 2.8 years and .8 years have gone home and some of my home work fixer-ups are done so I can move forward. Let us all keep our soldiers, sailors, marines, airmen and women in our prayers. Jim

Thanks Graham, I am more focused and figured it out. I'll cut down the centerboard a bit and plum the trunk the trunk per instructions and plans, I'm an amature compared to you and the pros, bless you and them as they bless me sooo much on this mission. I found and got the space on the spacer checking the plans and realize I've got to scribe it to the hull, which looks really great, no cups or bumps topside or bottom, checked again today. CB trunk cut pretty much flat but acording to plan and fits really good. I think I am just a little afraid at times becaues I've never had this level of detail or challenge or precision, even though some say anything can be fixed with enough epoxy and fiber glass. I just want it to be as right and right-on as I can possibly make it to the plans and drawings. You did an incredible job in the design and I feel that I owe it to the designer to comply to this process you put in place and I want to adhere to the plan as exactly as possible. It is amazing how it is coming together. I did modify the rear deck and tank covers for personal access and how we are building walnut tiller pieces to accenuate the wood grain along with old fir to provide classic enhancements in parts and pieces. I am also looking at how to accentuate the grain exposure on the twart seat and add walnut accent in the process, insipired by the Norse builder in the Pacific NW by his masterpiece 17, I think, including fir floor boards that can be used as deck plates for a sleeping area. Lots of ideas and we are at the point of doing again and not pondering and thnking. Have two war vets at the house watching this building, who both seem amazed at the process, simple to me and enjoy sharing this process with them to help them unwind and get into new groove. One my son, one a friend of daughter and son-in-law just back from Gitmo, bad stuff. Bless Them and keep all our sons and daughters in your prayers abroad or at home after this experiance. Thanks to all of you and again Graham for YOUR GREAT direction and keeping me and all of us focused. Love to You, Karla, family and friends. Give my BEST to Your Son A Fellow Submariener. Jim Atkinson West Monrpe LA

I noted that the spacer between the keel batten and trunk apears to sit under the edge of the inboard side of the trunk and the the king posts are fitted through the hull. Am I seeing this right? Another look causes me to belive the the trunk might be going through the hull to be clipped off when the boat is turned over for the bottom work. My trunk cutout per the pattern fits within 1/16 of an inch from front to back, little high at the front only (good fit?) but I note that the trunk when put together on the bench will have to be trimmed on the outboard side to get it plum when installed. Any input will be greatfully appreciated from any quarter. Thanks Jim A

THanks fellows, I am redoing the forward mast step as my original does not fit at all and I KEPT FIGHTING IT stupid me. Easier to redo and it makes more sense for installation of the unit. Redoing the part that must be scored to the hull was easier than I thought it would be, first one was a mess. Used a flattened bunch of chicken wire to make a curved template on its edge. Smashed wire is about the width of a ruler wrapped in blue masking tape, on edge pretty ridged and easy to shape into the curvature of the hull. Sanded into final shape. Last unit I made I put the top triangle on and then spen forever trying to figure how on earth I was going to fillet it into place. This time I glued the stringers into place that give a larger surface to glue down top, setting up now. Once dry I plan to install the shaped piece so it is square up and down and centered n the hull. Next I think I will be gluing down the top piece and fileting and taping up. Fun stuff but time consuming, oh well, worth it as it comes together. Thanks Again Jim

Hey all, still working on the beast and enjoying it all. Question for all experts: How many coats of epoxy are recommended for the internals of the seat tanks and forward compartment? Currently have done two, three seems okay but 4 seems overkill. Thanks for the input Jim

8) Just checking in to see how you are doing. We slowed down with daughter and grandkid to grandkids (2 now). 2.5 years and .5 years almost what a handfull but wonderful. The 104 has been slow but moving forward. Looking at the motor mounts and rear seat stringers at the moment to box in a rear seat structure. Began measuring and cut blanks, one for each side of the transom. Busy building stuff for inside the house as well and fixing stuff long unattended as I have a bunch of time available now that I have been resigned from my job. Got some stuff to do and keep busy. Let All Know how you are doing Jim

??? Hey all, back on track and working the interior. Got seat stringers set and done, cool how it's looking closer to the pics you guys share. I am going to do some blue water sailing in the Gulf and in the Atlantic, but not without a motor on board. I'd like to put two transom plates on, one each side to balance the weight and to ensure the option of mounting the motor on either side. How wide should they be and how close to the center of the transom? I put a 3.5 inch center plate on the transom and I think if I go with a 7.25 motor mount plate on each side it will look fine and provide me with what I am looking for in the end result. The motor I am looking at will be a Honda 3.5 HP at least, no more than 4 HP based on reads in other attachments. Ought to be sufficient for the weight and speed requirements. On other thing, I read the plans and understand them but I want to put the hatch in the aft seat in the center and need to do the deck beams differently which is no big deal, but the spacing listed on the plans for the off-set hatch seem rather far apart. I am not making a rear deck but am doing an aft seat in it's place, much like I've seen done by some others. What would you recommend for beam and stringer placement? Thanks All Jim A

??? Anther stupid question, what is the difference between flathead and finishing screws are they listed differently by suppliers? Boy, What I do not know about this stuff could fill a library. Built a lot of furniture and never had to know this cause I always hid the joints and fasteners. Feel Dumb and Dumber Jim A

::)Ray, I stand, or sit as the case may be "REBUKED". Navy background, did spend lots of time polishing brass though, but like a sailor, I figured ounce in place and ste, covered with epoxy it would not be a big deal. I'll look at PAR's web provided and see what they have to solve my dilema with the fasteners. On subs, there is a little brass (or was 25 years ago), used to get a dilute mix of Chromic acid, let it dry and polish with wire brush then wipe it down with lube oil and polish by hand. Most was in the bildge area and that with brass and the copper fittengs on the emergency diesel a daily wipe down with a rag kept the lines and fittings bright. Good entertainment on a 78 day patrol. So brnze silcone or SS screws it will be. Did get seat stringers started. Longs ones in place along with the forward bulkhead seat stringer fitting in quite well. I love the Fein multitool, talk about high speed sanding, found out that you should NOT use the mini-sander at real high speed, first time user. It heated up and melted the plastic clamp and the thing blew apart. Got carried away on that one. Opps : Thanks for the input Jim :

??? I have looked all over and cannot find the Silcone Bronze or Bronze screws, I can get my hands on brass to the most part. Checked Jamestown Supply and they do not seem to have the variety needed in the plans? Is there another supply house I can get all in one order? Frustrating because I do not use the web often enough to cruise through and find stuff, my wife can but she and I are stumped by this simple task of hunt and peck through a ton of sites. I know you wizards have some prefered sites and suppliers. HELP THanks, Jim

You can't beat quality and like I said I have several heavy duty jobs and several commitments for some furniture beyond the boat, and last but not least, I am a tool NUT and Mom said OKAy. Move FAST when that happens. Of course she gets a new digital camera out of the deal, she has real talent for photos and making books documenting all the family and activities. Pretty amazing to say the least. AND YES you are right on about another manufacturer picking it up, just saw that Rockwell (I think) has just come out with one for half the price. Just decided to go wth a proven and well respected tool before trying new manufacturer. Did that once or twice before and lost $$$ as they didn't make it far before failure shortly after warrenty was gone, and MOM is hard on the tools doing things that you'd wonder about, like the time she cut the frozen salmon on the radial arm saw (previous post) it was exciting as it flew across the garage and broke a panel in the garage door. Got to keep an eye on her still. Best to all Jim

Hey All, been busy as all get out with the economy as it is, Paperboard and paper mills are being hit hard and we are getting as lean and mean as possible tightening our belts and trying as all to produce more with less and increase quality since competition on the world wide market is really tough. I am with Graphic Packaging (Health and Safety Director at the Paperboard plant), and every time you drink a Coke, Pepsi, Miller, Coors or Bud, or even eat a frozen Pizza for the most part you buy our packaging. We invented the fridg pack, that long slim 12 pack that sits in your frig better that a standard 12 pack. We have some amazing packing products. THIS IS NOT A PLUG, just really proud of how we keep 1500 folks employed through inovation and use of American materials and AMERICANS, and are still adding some employees a bit at a time as we are beating China and Brazil and Mexico, and other companies at making new packaging products and owning 50% to 55% of the world wide market from a small community in West Monroe, Louisiana. Mead is our main and only real competition and they are tough, truth is this is good and they too are a real AMERICAN company. We have been working on the boat a little at a time while we can with Great Grandma and two Grand kids and daughter moving in while her husband is on West Pac for 7 months. Found difficulty cutting sets in the installed frame for stringers and framing so a bought this new tools I'd seen about two years ago to see if it will help. I have trouble using a Japanese saw and holding steady in this hard Douglas fir and some of the hard wood we are using in CS-20 104. Bought a Fein Multimaster Top FMM 250 Q. Have to replace glued down oak floor that has water infiltration in mother in law suite and replace with tile along with some other speciaty jobs and hope beyond hope that it will provide a better platform for cutting and fitting framing for decking frames and stringers along with the cutting of high epoxy points better that sanders. I think it will be a reall addition to tool set for many of the soon to be had adventures in completion of the CS-104. Have seen several used in tight spaces and applications in the paper mill and finally broke down and cried to Mom about a real need to have to fix her mom's room and replace some cracked tile on floors in sun rooms and baths. She didn't believe me but let me have one. Bought the $399 package and will let you all know how it works for fine sanding and detail work, hope to use it for some inlay on the foredeck. Got 30 days to send back but I doubt I will having used one about 18 months about 18 months ago. Better that "rotozip" or dremel in that it has no dies torque and does not seem to want to wander in direction of rotation and really god at plunge cutting and close quarter drills for cutting notches. Keep ya posted. Happy Easter and Blessing to all Jim

:-\ Hey All. am still working albeit slowly tward turing time. I am wondering about a block for mounting small motor, location and size. I have plenty of 1x8 fir and figued cutting piece and setting into stern before I piece in the deck beam on the stern. Ideas? Next do I need to notch out a section on the transom and how much is recommended? Next item in pieces: What and where do I mount the butt bolck for the optional mast position? It appears that it is sitting above the seat by 3/4 inch and the seat tops butt up to it. Does one put a plate on the bottom of the boat where one puts the mast (through?) the butt block so the mast sits on the bottom of the hull? Tom Lanthrop, I think you sent me pics of turing the hull could you send them again, maybe I can sse the interior and get a better idea for the internal structure before the seats are covered. Anyone with pics of the seat stringers being installed from aft to forward bulkhead HELP! The rear bulkhead is installed and looks great, took some work but what worth hile doesn't? I chose the option for the entire back to be a seat and it sure loks wide to say the very least.... lots of behind space but I think it needs more beams for support, measures a little over 27.5" deep from the rear bulkhead deck beam to the transom. Boat appears to have no twist with four levels installed front to back and laser line shooting the centerline. I am sure I am about 1/16 to 1/8 inch off in several areas but also looks to have balanced itself through God's grace. Thinking I need more beams for the seat athwart?? ship so my big fanny is not bending the 1/4 ply, noted someone doubled that up to 1/2 in one boat, can't remember which one. I am a little leary of cutting the notches for setting the beams in all requirements, but I'll get through it, looking at getting a FIEN tool, high speed occillating device which I can also use for cutting out some bad oak flooring set on concrete, need to replace soon. Another request or beg rather.... any pics of the fore deck beams during and after installation would be greatly apreciated. By the By, does one install these before or after turning............I forget so darn much from previous guidance of the masters. Thanks folks, look forward to the input Jim

I was reading the last comment on Keel construction and I really like the idea of laminated construction as I can cutt fir strips that will easily follow the curvature of hte hull at 3/8th or so. In addition while building these up I was wondering, the engineer in me about runners about 12 to 18 inches on either side of the keel to provide rubs when beaching the boat. Has anyone done this on a CS 20? I saw this on a 20 foot fishing boat but don't know if it would mess up traching while sailing or improve it. But I thought it would help kep the chines and bottom off the beach and more readily improve tracking on a heeled over position. Talking from NO experiance, just an idea. Thought that these runners could be about 3/4's think and 1 inch high for the lenget of 2/3d's forward from stern. Any comments or ideas? Jim

Whatever happened it worked and the fillet is beautiful and hard. Must just be a chaange of state. I did note that the resin cleared just by putting in a pot of hot water from the sink and changing the water when it cooled, clear as water now. Thanks for the input guys. Will continue on the boat after church today setting seat stringers and pulling out the bracing on the seat bulkheads. Lots of sanding to do as well today. Hope to cut some cardboard templates for the seat siding as well and trace patterns on the ply to cut this week. THanks Again Jim

Resin and hardner mixing: I went out to set rear bulkhead and got the hardner in the cup and began to add the resin. Oooppps, I think, found that bottom of resin had thickened, sooooo I added the clear resin from the top 3/4 of the bottle to the hardner. Will this make a difference? Does not seem to be cooking off, but is it still about 65 degrees out side. I did get really warm water and set the resin bottle inside to clear it and probably mix it. Am I going to have to scrape out the fillet I just laid to fit the rear bulkhead or will it harden, haven't had this problem before but I laid off the boat for the last five months while grandson #2 had to come into this world at about 8 lbs, he is now about 4 months and beatutiful, as is his big brother who was with us at about 1 year when we started this project. Both boys and Mom with us as their daddy is on a West Pac in Japan and elsewhere with the Navy. Bring them home when he is gone, house is full with Ma-in-law living with us, she is really cool and a young 86, she say's pushing 90. Please let me know Jim

Just a Rube Goldberg ? idea. What if you rigged them outboard like rub boards or rub rails with lashings like bungie cords or snap-ons. That way they are not under foot, readily available, and you could attach with poly rope so when released from lashings they could not fall off and drift away. I am actually thing about something like this on the CS-20 which will make the seating area wider when sitting on the side rail when heeled over. Just a goofy idea I have NOT checked out but am seriously considering. Jim

Hey all, we have some more forward momentum, we have the keel batten installed and mudded down, put first coat of epoxy on forward bulkhead to seal before weather turns to more rain here in North Central LA. I did put a 3/4 x 4'" board down the center inside of the forward bulkhead because I could not keep pre-cuts I did from warping and even the beam is a little out of square, doesn't look like a snake any more, started keeping beams in the house with goofy weather along with the tiller and center board blank we have yet to cut and shape. Keel batten looks pretty good no goofy curves and seems to be well centered along the length in the mud we set in place. Predrilled and put in 1" screws every 10 inches, and then put my 210 pound frame down on top of batten to seat and screw down to hull in the thickened epoxy set hardend two weeks ago, yes we sanded the heck out of the center seam, very rough to allow good mechanical bond set with screws. Maybe not necessary but like the extra set and we will fill heads with epoxy. Keel Batten looks really good, I will put silicone brass screws into place for permanant attachment, used 1" drywall for setting, like the back up of good attachment. Getting ready to cut seat stringers, any problem with cutting 3/4 x 1 & 1/2 inch for more stability and ability to set in more substantial cross members? I am working toward using cardboard to cut templates for seat sides and bulkheads in the seats, any comments or inspiration? I really am thinking more substantial deck framing after seeing some of others work, if even only by 1/4 or so an inch, especially on the forward deck., We have more pics, but we are more focused on our daughter having 2nd baby in less than three weeks and more with my older sister older by 11 1/2 months having massive heart attack on Friday last. She seems to being okay for now and son and daughter are with her along with all who can be there, she in in great spirits. Please keep both all prayers and hopes and give them a your blessings through God in Christ. Keep ya posted all is really well and we all move forward. Thanks for the prayers Jim Atkinson

I would find, it hard to mark once putting the hull together and recommend marking before folding up. I marked every line and point of connection provided in the plans and checked three times to ensure I was right on target or best I could get them. You are working a flat surface and as you back measure points they will come together as you make them with greater clarity. I too was confused for some time and I reviewed the plans for three months before I marked a stick or sheet of ply. Just another engineer, but I did find it worth the effort to best understand all points identified, I even marked them in different colors depending on the purpose specifed by Graham. I have pencil lead, red, blue and green lines and I coded the plans for future reference to avoid my own confusion. It is cool thte way it comes together, plug through and keep posting all the questions and progress. These folks are GREAT at keeping me straight and providing sound easy to understand advice. Sometimes it sparks lots of really interesting conversation, go with the flow and read it all twice, they really want us all successful and it is a great comfort to have this resource. Thanks to all you folks out there behind our dugouts in the stands. Jim Atkinson CS20-104