Stapled vs sewed-on skin

[vttramper]

I know that several builders on this forum have stapled the hull and deck fabric to the gunwales, with the seam covered by a rub rail. This avoids the stitched seam on the center of the deck, making for a clean appearance. It would also simplify a two-tone paint job, with the (in my case) wobbly paint line covered by the rub rail. My worry is that a free-floating combing would put a lot of stress on the stapled seam at the point alongside the cockpit, at least on entry/exit. I think all the examples of the stapled approach that I have seen used the plywood combing with added supports, but I much prefer the free-floating, stitched-on, laminated combing. I have built two canoes with stapled-on skin and it worked OK, but in that case there are no points with particularly concentrated stress the way there would seem to be at the side of the kayak cockpit. I am at a decision point on the skinning approach and would appreciate any feedback. (Just to complicate things, I also like the traditional stitched look and am intrigued with the sewing, plus I have invested big bucks in thread and needles. Decisions, decisions.)

[kayak278]

I've sewn up three kayaks.....the last one using Jeff's "2 cord" sewing method, in which you roll the two sides of fabric around cordage and then run the stitch under the rolled cord.  I really like the clean look that this method gives over the whip stitch method.  In my humble opinion, having a visible stitch running down the center (straight or not so straight LOL) adds to the beauty of a SOF boat that you built yourself!  It's also a great conversation starter when people walk up to you at a put-in site and ask what it is. 

 

Good luck in whatever method you decide to use.....  It's hard to make just one!

[Kudzu]

There is one thing I really like about a stapled skin on a canoe. It is that you can pull the skin tight and there is no need to shrink it and odds are great that it is not going to loosen up any.  

 

The thing I don't like is the stapled WILL pull threads in the skin and they are going to show when you paint. If you could find a stainless steel or monel staple with a pointed end rather than blunt, chisel point you might get around this. But I have yet to find any for any. I use T50 staples in my gun.

 

I've sewn up three kayaks.....the last one using Jeff's "2 cord" sewing method, in which you roll the two sides of fabric around cordage and then run the stitch under the rolled cord.  I really like the clean look that this method gives over the whip stitch method.  In my humble opinion, having a visible stitch running down the center (straight or not so straight LOL) adds to the beauty of a SOF boat that you built yourself!  It's also a great conversation starter when people walk up to you at a put-in site and ask what it is.

 

I have to agree with Matt, I love that stitch. Done properly it pulls the skin tight enough there is no need for anything but just a little bit of shrinking out some wrinkles. It is not my first choice for anything else i build. It's faster to sew and I think it looks better than anything else I have tried. As for two tone paint, you just need some high adhesion tape to make that sharp edge.

[Hirilonde]

 It would also simplify a two-tone paint job, with the (in my case) wobbly paint line covered by the rub rail.

There are no rules against using a rub rail on a sewn skin kayak.  I have even considered adding one just for looks.  I have also thought about making a channel molding to cover the sewn seam.  Not sure I like either idea, and they add to maintenance.

[vttramper]

After all that - I am leaning towards sewing, partly for the "conversation starter" look and partly because I really want to try my hand at sewing.

 

Question:  How well does the 2-cord method work with 8oz fabric?  The video emphasizes its value with the new heavier fabric, especially in pulling the fabric tight, but is it also effective with the looser weave 8 oz? I had been planning to do the whip stitch but also like the finished look of the corded method.

 

2nd question: Jeff, what tape are you using? I saw an earlier exchange on this forum on various tapes but I don't recall any clear answer. On other projects (bare wood rather than fabric) I have not had great results with the usual blue or green painter's tape, and that was without the irregular surface of the fabric. The problem is partly bleeding and partly lack of adhesion (early release) - probably two manifestations of the same problem. To a degree the bleeding can be helped by painting the taped edge with the initial, underlying color so any bleeding just matches.  But getting part way done and having the tape start to let go is disasterous.

[Hirilonde]

After all that - I am leaning towards sewing, partly for the "conversation starter" look and partly because I really want to try my hand at sewing.

 

I really like the first part of that reason.  People are really amazed at these boats when they first see them and that the skin is sewn on is part of the reason.  As to the second part of your reason: you are a sick person 

[Kudzu]

The only tape I have tried that works is 3M - 2020 High Adhesion tape. It is the only thing I have found that doesn't turn loose easy. But even it requires me to burnish the edge to prevent breed through. And I usually have a couple of small spots to fix.  

 

Frog tape I have not tried but it sounds interesting.

[DURRETTD]

I stapled the skin on all (one) of my SOFs primarilly because I dislike sewing and also because thought I could get the skin tighter than I could by sewing. I probably had some pulling from the staples, but the paint and the polypropylene tape I used for the rub rail apparently covered it. The staples have held perfectly, partially because the hull fabric was wrapped over two edges of the gunwale and stapled inside the gunwale; the deck was wrapped over one edge and stapled on the outside of the gunwale - the staples don't take the full tension on the fabric - and partially because I used two coats of thinned paint that penetrates the fabric and acts as glue to hold the fabric to the gunwale. As some folks discussed in a thread a few weeks ago, SOF is not an experimental concept, but there's plenty of room for experimentation within the well-established SOF process. Stapling is obviously not historically accurate, but it worked well for my one build. 

 

I painted the entire boat with two coats of thinned white paint then painted the topsides with two coats of un-thinned white before I worried about taping for my yellow deck and bottom, so the cheap Lowes masking tape held well with no noticeable bleeding. I doubt anyone would mistake my boat for a work of art, but it works great!

[kayak278]

After all that - I am leaning towards sewing, partly for the "conversation starter" look and partly because I really want to try my hand at sewing.

 

Question:  How well does the 2-cord method work with 8oz fabric?  The video emphasizes its value with the new heavier fabric, especially in pulling the fabric tight, but is it also effective with the looser weave 8 oz? I had been planning to do the whip stitch but also like the finished look of the corded method.

 

 

The 2 cord method worked great for me using the 8oz polyester.  Here's a photo of the kayak that I finished for my son...it kind of shows the 2 cord stitch in front of the coaming...sorry I don't have a better photo that shows the stitch close up.

 

[vttramper]

I stapled the skin on all (one) of my SOFs primarilly because I dislike sewing and also because thought I could get the skin tighter than I could by sewing. I probably had some pulling from the staples, but the paint and the polypropylene tape I used for the rub rail apparently covered it. The staples have held perfectly, partially because the hull fabric was wrapped over two edges of the gunwale and stapled inside the gunwale; the deck was wrapped over one edge and stapled on the outside of the gunwale - the staples don't take the full tension on the fabric - and partially because I used two coats of thinned paint that penetrates the fabric and acts as glue to hold the fabric to the gunwale. As some folks discussed in a thread a few weeks ago, SOF is not an experimental concept, but there's plenty of room for experimentation within the well-established SOF process. Stapling is obviously not historically accurate, but it worked well for my one build. 

 

I painted the entire boat with two coats of thinned white paint then painted the topsides with two coats of un-thinned white before I worried about taping for my yellow deck and bottom, so the cheap Lowes masking tape held well with no noticeable bleeding. I doubt anyone would mistake my boat for a work of art, but it works great!

Thanks for the info - I really like the idea of wrapping the fabric over the edges to help absorb/distribute localized strain.  I still think my current boat will get sewn, however, but you never know what may be down the pike.

[BobV]

Here is another option, sewing the skin to the gunwale.  Attached are two pictures of a mock up to see if this method would work before trying it on a kayak.  The bottom was sewn on first.  The fabric was wrapped around the cording, which is weed trimmer line and sewn to the gunwale, very similar to sewing the the fabric to a coaming.  Then the top was wrapped around another cording and sewn to the bottom cording.  This method took 18 hours to sew a 17' Yost Sea Rider, not counting sewing the coaming.  If I were to use this method again I'd sew on the laminated coaming before sewing the top to the bottom.  As it was there was just enough material to sew to the coaming.  Also, the last few stiches at the ends were hard. 

 

 

[labrat]

Question:  How well does the 2-cord method work with 8oz fabric?  The video emphasizes its value with the new heavier fabric, especially in pulling the fabric tight, but is it also effective with the looser weave 8 oz? I had been planning to do the whip stitch but also like the finished look of the corded method.

 

 

 

Here's another example of using cords with 8oz fabric. My only SOF, a Curlew.

 

Before shrinking

 

 

 

After shrinking.

 

 

I think the seams are much better than they would have been without the cords.

 

There were a few minor pull holes but these filled OK with several coats of paint in those areas.

The only problem areas were the ends but I think these will be harder with any method.

 

[Kudzu]

 

The only problem areas were the ends but I think these will be harder with any method.

 

 

One of the best ways to finish is the ends is use the bronze half oval on the ends and run it down under the bow and stern. It makes a great rub stip and  it gives a very finished look.  I have done this a couple of time times along with the new stitch and this is going to be the way I do all my boats from now on.

 

Next boat I build I will document the steps. I do the ends before sewing. I fold the skin around the end and staple it in place. Then take the other side, overlaped over the first part and staple it. The the tricky part is trimming the fabric tight to the end without burning a hole in the fabric underneath. I temporary install the strip and drill the holes. Then I tape along the sides, remove the strip, apply caulking and reinstall it with bronze screws.  

 

I will be offering predrilled stips and screws in the store a little latter on.

 

This was taken before this one was finished but you get the idea.

 

[vttramper]

I like those bronze stems - I have done the exact same procedure with the ends on my SOF canoes but made laminated wooden stems with something (usually cherry) that is pretty tough. But those bronze jobs would be very nice.

[Hirilonde]

Hey Jeff:  Is your bronze hallow or solid? Is is half round or half oval?  Have you tried bending before drilling the holes to avoid kinks?  Bronze is my favorite metal for trim on a boat.