Princess 26

[DavidL]

Last week I finally got a chance to run down a lead (leed) on some lead (led). I found the right guy. He had about 400 pounds of wheel weights he wanted to get rid of and when I mentioned that was a good start, but would be needing more, he found 600 pounds of lead shot he wanted to get rid of as well.  At the same time, I got the crib notes / crash course in metallurgy and melting wheel weights. Wheel weight lead would seem to have a good mix of lead, 3% antimony (hardness) and 1% tin (easy flow) for this type of project. The lead shot is about the same....without the tin. A bit early to be buying this, but I figure you take it when you find it.

 

Will get started melting down the wheel weights to clean them up. Also need to get going on the external keel as both the CB tip and keel will be made from sand castings. Want to get those made and drying out to avoid the moisture issues with molten lead.

 

Howard, 

 

I will be ordering the plans for the PS26 this summer, so I will be following your build closely;  I can't wait to start. May I ask how much you paid per pound for your lead wheel weight?  I'm going to start hitting all the service stations in my area.

 

Here is a pretty good video on melting wheel weights. There are 4 parts

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank,

Dave 

[Howard]

Dave:

 

Thanks for the videos. These help take the mystery out of it. Flux is mentioned a few times. My guy told me to toss a small pellet of candle wax into each melt for that reason. Will try it with and without to see what difference it makes.

 

Curious that the guy I got the weights from started out casting lead bullets as a hobby, and let that get away from him into a full fledged business (after his first retirement). Eventually, he could no longer find enough wheel weights, nor was it fast enough to keep up with demand. He now buys pre-cast ingots by the truckload. The cost? I paid about 60 cents a pound for all of it......shot included.

 

As for finding wheel weights, early on I started out making the rounds and found a tire dealer who would work with me. That lasted a month or two and they were told to stop. What was waste is now a valuable byproduct they can sell. I'm told the battery trucks that deliver new batteries to these places and pick up the dead ones also snag the wheel weights. In some cases, they even have contracts with these folks so won't sell them to outsiders like us. That would be the case for most of the franchise operations. A small town tire guy or service station might be different, but it takes a long time for one of those guys to generate 50 pounds of weights.

 

Knowing this, I asked about the cost of the precast ingots? $2 a pound for those. Ouch.

[Scott Dunsworth]

Howard when I melted my lead weights I used an old Dutch oven kettle, with a propane fish fryer stove. As soon as they where melted I would pour them in cheap bread pans. I would lay the bread pan over the kettle to preheat it before pouring. I used a very large sifting spoon to skim all the steel pieces and scum off the top then pour in the bread pan. I would end up with a 25 to 30 pound clean ingot. When it came time to make the big pour I just loaded up with nice clean ingots and had her melted down in no time. I could get about 10 pours in a bread pan before it would get too warped to use or too hard to get the ingot out. I also never worried about the temperature of the molten lead while cleaning and pouring the ingots, as soon as it was molted enough to pour, I would. Over heated lead starts to give off some pretty nasty gases, but what I have been told is, that that's way over the melting temp.

 

Also I was told by several tire dealers that it was illegal to sale the weights to anyone but a licenced scrap dealer. Some kind of Federal EPA regulation an law. But on the up side most small dealers ether don't know this or don't care.

 

I have a bunch of scrap aluminum, copper and steel to take to the scrap dealer shortly. I'm going to try to buy some lead from them and see what they tell me.

 

I found that a five gallon bucket of wheel weights weighs about 150 pounds, after they are cleaned up from dirt and the steel clips I would end up with about 110 pounds of lead.

[Howard]

BTW, I asked and was told the plumber's lead is pure lead, as was the radiation shielding salvaged from a nuclear reactor. Those were my backup options. Those presented problems as pure lead is soft lead. I wanted some antimony for hardness. Wheel weight lead is about perfect for our use. The ingots used for bullets are up to 6% or so of antimony, plus some tin. But it also turns out you can buy ingots with 30% antimony to blend with pure lead to get the % antimony up, so if you can find it, pure lead is an option.

 

As mentioned in the videos Dave provided, some imports use zinc wheel weights instead of lead. They might be in the mix. Different color and if you drop one on concrete, they tend to have a ring to them vs. the dull thud of lead. Good to know they melt at a higher temp. Was told they will seriously mess up a bullet casting so for that use are a bad thing. May not be good for a lead keel either, as zinc is less noble than lead. Electrolysis and all that. Something to watch for.

[Scott Dunsworth]

Howard when I clean my weights up, I ran across maybe a half a dozen of those zinc wheel weights, I just skimmed them out. I didn't know what they were then, but that was about ten years ago they may be used more now than they where then.

This lead thing is starting to become high on my anxiety list. I still need about another 2000 pounds. I think I'll post a big note on my truck dash asking myself if I found any lead this week.

 

Can't wait till you get your 26 3d, I want to come out and see her.

 

Scott

[Howard]

Scarcity of some of these materials and the cost if you could find them is what got me thinking about derelict and storm salvage boats. There are no doubt thousands of derelicts sitting around in bone yards, back yards......in some cases, still tied to docks.... that would have a ton of lead (perhaps literally).....not to mention a lot of other stuff to salvage. In many cases, the cost to acquire them is nominal......if not free. The real cost for those is the labor to salvage it all, plus disposal of the remains. That cause would be helped if you lived near one of those yards, but even here in the midwest, there are large numbers of derelicts around, once you start looking for them. Something to consider.

 

To DaveL and others who intend to build one of these contraptions, it is never too early to start assembling your materials. Unless you live near a place where you can walk in and buy quality lumber, it doesn't hurt to grab what you can, when you run across it. I can hardly believe the difference in the quality of lumber I could find as recent as 5 years ago vs. what I can find today. You don't need that much, but what you do use should be dry, clear and straight grained. Snag it when you find it and hang on to it.

[Howard]

First blood on the wheel weights. Provided you are careful, working with the lead seems simple enough.

 

My initial attempt yielded a couple ingots of 10 pounds each. I am using the small bread pans so the resulting ingots are easier to handle. Until the big pour, I can see these ingots coming in handy for a lot of things, such as makeshift clamps for scarfing plywood, etc.

[Hirilonde]

We had a whole set of lead weights, ingots and bricks in the carpenter shop at the last marina I worked at.  Used them all the time.  Come casting time you will probably find yourself wanting to keep a few.

[Howard]

Time for an update. Work is a two bladed sword. Pays the bills to allow you to play, but then interferes with playtime. About to flush out a bunch of work, which hopefully, will allow more time to play.

 

Anyway, have managed to smelt about 400 pounds of the wheel weights. Interesting process and not nearly as difficult or scary as I had feared. As long as you don't get complacent, not much to fear about this. The weights I found had been stored in a wash tub that was left outside and many of them were covered in water. Once moved to buckets, the steel clips started to rust. There can also be a lot of trash in those including things like rubber air stems. The first few batches, I was careful to pick all that out and try to clean them up some. Then I tried a few that were not and it made little difference. What isn't lead floats to the top to be skimmed off, including things like the rubber. Just do a gently burn (not full blast) and give it time, and they will melt and separate. Even the rubber, which has a higher melting point than the lead. Get it too hot and your lead turns a bluish gold and you run the risk of also melting things like the zinc weights. I have found a few of those and they float just like the steel clips to. As soon as I can see molten lead, I start stirring. It speeds the process along. A way to envision this is to imagine putting about 6 inches of ping pong balls in a 5 gallon bucket and piling gravel on top. Then start filling the bucket with water. The rocks will probably hold the ping pong balls down as they don't have enough buoyancy to float the rocks. But agitate it the least little bit and they will pop to the top and the rocks will sink. Same with lead and the steel clips. Stir it just a bit and things will go much faster. Funny to see those heavy steel clips bobbing around on top.

 

Second part is the need to flux, which is apparently adding a carbon source. This is a bullet caster's trick. The guy who sold me the weights said to use candle wax. That is done after the first cleanup of clips, etc. Others recommend using saw dust as the source of carbon. I suspect the same stuff we use to thicken epoxy would work. Purpose is to kept the tin and antimony in suspension and to clean up the lead of impurities. Apparently, you can use quite a lot and it won't hurt anything. The more you use, the cleaner the lead gets. All bright, shiny and clean looking.

 

I also decided to order some special bentonite clay for green sand casting. Despite what you may read, cat litter won't work. The casting stuff is very, very fine microscopic powder. Have mixed some up and will experiment with it in coming days. First pour may test the pucker factor. Green sand is said to be porous enough to vent the steam to avoid any explosions. We will see. If this turns out to be my last posting, it didn't work.

[Gordy Hill]

If you don't report back, can I have the table saw??

[Howard]

Now there is an idea. Go silent.......get ready and when folks show up for the goodies put them to work!

 

BTW, the table saw I use is one my dad has had for at least 50 years that I know of. He got it from a guy who lopped off several fingers working late at night. I use it, but with great respect. Same with the band saw. I'm usually pretty careful around power tools, but especially so around those two.

[Scott Dunsworth]

Must be very careful with machines and cars, the movie Christine comes to mind. Bad to the bone!!!

[Howard]

Made some progress on the CB. Again, this is one of the things that needs to be done early on, as the finished width of the CB determines the finished width of the CB trunk. That would be after the glass is on, so even the lead tip needs to be poured and attached. The CB trunk gets installed as shortly after the hull is turned the first time and prior to the keel deadwood and glassing the bottom.

 

Anyway, for my first (and hopefully last) attempt at the board, I used yellow pine. Heavy stuff, strong stuff.....but I have concerns about it checking and splitting. We will see. Having gotten one this far, doing another does not seem like too big of a deal. Would probably use doug fir next time.

 

Plans suggest using the rope trick on the leading edge and hard epoxy filer for the trailing edge, but unless you inset these from the beginning, that means you are having to add and subtract from the board, if you want to maintain the shape outlined in the plan. I decided to inset them from the beginning.

 

Once the overall shape was lofted onto the board blank, I had a flat leading edge and cut out the blank to form the roughed in trailing edge.  I decided  to use a router with 1/4" flute bit on the trailing edge and 1/2" box core bit for the leading edge. The trick was how to get them centered. To draw a centerline, I used a spar maker's trick, which is a centering tool. Once the line was in, I used the same trick with the router, using two screws in the mounting holes, which kept the router bit centered down the entire run. Much simpler than trying to use a router table or edge guide, both of which get close to center, but are usually off a little to one side.

 

Once those were in, I backfilled the trailing edge with thickened epoxy and dropped my epoxy soaked rope in the leading edge channel. Both seemed to work well. The board has now had the finished shape roughed in and ready for final shaping.

 

In addition to the end game benefit of having an rope on the leading edge and sharp, and square edged epoxy on the trailing edge, both of these will serve during the shaping process. I've shaped a number of foils and when only marked off with pencil lines, invariably, I manage to mar my lines and thus lose my place. Hopefully, with these hard, straight centered lines, I'll end up with a better foil.

 

BTW, on the rope, I used polyester. I did some tests between polyester and polypropylene and found the epoxy soaking in better. Also, when I whacked the cured samples with a hammer, I couldn't see any change to the polyester. The polypropylene dented, which to me suggested the epoxy was in it, but not stuck to it. Also, last time I was at the store, I noticed a chart that showed polyester to have twice the strength and abrasion resistance, so went with it. To soak it, I used straight epoxy, except I added some 300+ grit walnut shell as pigment, so later on, during shaping, I'll know where I'm at. To saturate the rope,  I stirred it around, then hit it with a vacuum. Judging from the amount of bubbles that foamed out, that was probably a good idea. The only real surprise was to find my carefully measured piece had contracted somewhere between 5% and 10%. I managed to stretch it back out and held it in place with finish nails on the ends. I pre-wet the channel, but didn't have too. There was plenty of epoxy that worked out of the rope to bond it in place.

 

 

[Gordy Hill]

Nice, nice work.

 

( I don't really need a table saw, I have a nice one.)

[PeterP]

Howard, I hope that middle strip in the glue up does not come back to haunt you later. Wrong grain orientation in precisely the worst place for it. And yellow pine will swell like crazy. I guess you are planning to glass the heck out of it. PeterP

[Howard]

Peter:

 

I seem to recall coming up one strip short and that one was available (and straight), so I used it.  I culled some staves that bowed like a banana once they were ripped out. Not sure whey as they came off the same board and had the same grain pattern as the straight ones did. Funny stuff, wood.

 

There are more than a few things with this board I have concerns about. Despite being kiln dried to begin with, and after being stacked and stored in a dry winter house for nearly 6 months, it appears to me the staves have dried and shrunk a bit more after they were ripped and glued up. I didn't notice any problem end spits when I glued them up, but there are small ones in the ends now. In the end, this one may turn out to be good practice, and keep it as a spare (if it doesn't self destruct).

 

I don't know what wood you can stick underwater that would not swell up some if it got wet, so yes, it will be glassed and sealed up with the intention of keeping it encapsulated and dry. My alternatives are Doug Fir and Cypress. I also have my eye on some piles of old lumber that has been stacked in a barn for decades. Outside, it has a weathered look to it, but inside, most is solid and dry. Most of that would be cypress, pine or fir.

 

BTW, plans say to use wood or plywood. I built a rudder out of plywood once and had no problems with it, but have also heard that plywood will eventually fail when a sideways flexing stress is applied over time, as would certainly be the case with this board. What I have thought about, but have never heard of anyone doing, is building a board out of a stack of laminations. In this case, a stack of about 36 - 2" x 6' strips of 1/2" plywood. That way, the grain would run straight to the load and stress vs. perpendicular to it as is the case when built from flat sheets. There is the exposed grain to worry about, but that is the case with any foil made from plywood. They always have to be glassed well.

[PeterP]

My concern was that the center strip - the way the grain is oriented and if it were to swell up - will have a tendency to go fat rather than wide. Board can go 1/2" wider without any problems where 1/8" gain in thickness may cause it to bind.

[Howard]

Good information. I would think if the were to swell to that much in either direction, it would blow the epoxy joints apart in the process? It will also be encapsulated in a layer or two of glass, so something would have to give there too. All good reasons to make sure it is well sealed and glassed, and hopefully, never breached.

 

Still curious about the plywood strip idea. It could be made from off cut scraps. Grain orientation would be right......each strip would be isolated from the others to avoid some of the moisture issues and if a person wanted to, they might be able to shave material off on the edge of each strip to get a head start on shaping?

[PeterP]

My feeling on the plywood is that cutting it into strips and re-gluing it would involve huge strength loss. Your ply is reduced essentially to being a core material. And not a very good one at that. You could do foam but unless you can do the design work yourself I would not go in there. Graham or Allan could probably do it but as busy as they are I suspect you would be on a back burner for a good fat while. Wood really is your best bet. Cost/strength ratio, ease of manufacture & repairability - all excellent. PeterP

[Hirilonde]

Still curious about the plywood strip idea. It could be made from off cut scraps. Grain orientation would be right......

Why would the grain orientation be right?  Plywood laminations change direction no matter how you cut and orient the pieces.