Opinions please

[Kudzu]

Loving the input I have been getting from you guys. Thinking a lot about the double canoe and I have been playing with the idea of a piroque. That is about as simple a boat as you can build and in fuselage frame construction it would be about as light as you could build one.

So I took that concept and drew this. I think it is still a piroque, but it would have fixed seats mounted in place that would/should eliminate the need for any thwarts, leaving the inside open. If you just put floors in at the seats, rather than full length, that would keep the weight down to a minimum

Tell me what you think. If you hate it, think it's ugly, tell me.

Just ignore that fact that Busters feet stick through the boat. :-)

[Kudzu]

Just found another design I have had forgotten about. I really like the looks of this one. A two place canoe. Much prettier but not nearly as simple to build as the piroque would be. Nor as light.

This design has a some Tumble home which I have always admired. I built one boat this way and the frame warped out of shape and never attempted it again. I know understand where I went wrong and know how to do that.

[woodman]

I like the piroque idea...of coarse I'm kinda partial being I have one and one on the way....My 15-32 SOF is about 31'' at the 3'' WL it ought to work as a tandem....

My first yak was 14' long with a 32'' beam and it was stable for 2 people...

http://i147.photobuc...tn_PIC_1346.jpg

[Hirilonde]

The piroque looks awfully narrow for an open boat. You can call it what you want, but I would think it would be used in lieu of a canoe and I like canoes better. The canoe is pretty. If I were considering a 2 person open boat that is something I would look into.

[Kudzu]

Put a pair in the canoe and it looks smaller too. But the stability level is pretty good due to it's flatter bottom.

FWIW I agree the canoe is better looking, but the Piroque would be a super fast boat to build. Sort of a quick and dirty boat. There is a method to my madness.

[Hirilonde]

There is a method to my madness.

Or is it madness to your method?

[SBknox]

I like the canoe much more than the Flintstone Piroque ("Buster's feet sticking out the bottom"). I personally would rather take the time to build something that is much more pleasing to the eye. By the way, Jeff, do you have the Shad plans ready to release yet?

[Kudzu]

By the way, Jeff, do you have the Shad plans ready to release yet?

Worked on them today and I think they are ready. Just need to make a sheet for the Manual. I SHOULD be able to get that done tomorrow if I can stay focused.

Then it just a matter of editing the web site and adding it to the store.Should be able to get that up tomorrow but.......

[woodman]

I wouldn't knock a very functional boat... simplicity can be very appealing....And the sides can have some tumble home also....

A load of homemade Pirogues posted here.....

http://www.southernp...6a6887db5ba79ff

How is this for ugly...

[Art Mulder]

So what makes a pirogue different from a canoe?

I have to agree that #2 looks better. How about a top view of both of them? I'm not quite seeing how they differ in size or carrying capacity.

And IMHO you'd need at least one center thwart for portaging. (At least, I'm thinking about tripping with a canoe)

[Hirilonde]

And IMHO you'd need at least one center thwart for portaging. (At least, I'm thinking about tripping with a canoe)

Need might be a harsh word, but I agree that a center thwart, especially with a curve in it to go around your neck sure makes solo carrying comfortable. Add in the silly light weight of SoF and it would be like carrying nothing. I also don't see any draw back to a center thwart in a canoe 13 feet or longer. There is still plenty of open space for people or stuff. Maybe build in the landings for a removable thwart if not having one really appeals to some?

[Kudzu]

Point taken. With rigid mounted seats I have in mind thwart wouldn't be needed for structural reason I don't think. But if you wanted one it's not a problem to put one in. Matter for fact it's simple to install while building it.

Also, I agree that the canoe is far better looking. But i think there is market for a cheap and dirty boat like this. Kids boat, first time builder, little to no money, limited time, etc.

May not appeal to most of you on here, but I think there is a group out there that it would appeal too. It would have caught my attention when I was looking at skin boats the first time.

[Hirilonde]

But i think there is market for a cheap and dirty boat like this. Kids boat, first time builder, little to no money, limited time, etc.

I think you are right. I also think there is a market for the FreeBs as well. There are those who just want to mess about in a kayak on a casual basis and want something more stable. Maybe you should stop giving them away and add the plans to your store. I will have a better impression on the design this spring when my wife (and I) get to try her's out. Oh yeah, she decided on the 12 and I have started it.

[Kudzu]

Maybe you should stop giving them away and add the plans to your store.

You a smart man.

I have thought about it. But people are funny and will build from poorly designed free plans and before they would spend $20 for plans for a better boat. It's like there an something bad about buying plans. I did it on my first skin boat too! Look where that lead! So maybe if they like it and get serious they will come back for their first real long boat.

I have thought about offering full size plans for it at a discounted price. Just has not been a priority.

[Hirilonde]

But people are funny and will build from poorly designed free plans and before they would spend $20 for plans for a better boat. It's like there an something bad about buying plans.

I can't figure people and there is no accounting for logic (or lack of). I am a cheap skate too, but the key to being a good one is doing things once. And that means finding a good design before you start cutting material up. If you are looking for marketing advice you surely don't want to listen to me. I just have to consider what I went through deciding on a design and helping my wife decide. For some people a stable low learning curve boat to play in is the correct answer. Whether people will conclude this on their own or buy plans for it I offer no advice.

[Kudzu]

One of the problems for me is I don't like short fat Rec Boats. And I don't like to sell something I have not built. It is hard for me to get excited about building this type of boat and testing it, even though I know I really need to offer some. I have so many boats as it is and then I have do something with it afterward. I live in a rural area and don't know any kids I could give one too unfortunately.

I designed the Mess About as good paddling beginner boat but at 15 foot I think newbies think it is to big. They see these discount house bathtubs and compare it to that. It is a really sweet paddling boat and that extra bit of length is well worth it. Of course new paddlers don't understand that. It's slow because of the length but it so much faster (which really means easier to paddle) than the average 12 footer I was totally impressed first time I paddled it. I hope do a lot of fishing out of my Mess About this spring.

[mfrankel]

I am a newbie and I agree that a tandem canoe should be next on the agenda.

If I am going to allocate alot of my time, garage space, and energy to building any boat, however, it won't be quick and dirty. It will be like your Stonefly but flatter on the bottom for total stability so that small children, their mothers and their grandmothers, will not feel insecure. There is no such sof design on the internet. The only designs I am aware of are the beautiful but tippy geodesic canoes.

In other words, you've already designed every manor of performance vehicle, and I know that it won't be exciting for you, but for many of your customers, we have to first put a family car in the garage just to have the conversation about getting a sports car.

[yggmeanhorse]

I have a 12 ft plastic kayak for my son, a 10 foot plastic sit on top for any little kid that may want to go kayaking with us. The Firefly Baidarka for me. Now I am building two more Fireflys. One for my oldest son and the second because now that I have already built one, I know I could do a much better job. Hopefully my oldest son will keep his Firefly at his house but that will leave me with 2. I think I will need the Shad. I want the Stonefly. The Mess About looks interesting. I very much want to build a certain wood kayak I seen on another web site. Should you design the trimaran I will have to have it. Should you design a tandam kayak that is some what fast, but stable enough to take a beginner out, I will have to have it. Should you design a two place canoe I will have to have it. But, I only have a one car garage to keep my (right now 3 kayaks) one motorcycle and a riding mower. Also, this one car garage is where I build the boats. Looks like I have myself in a little bit of a jam. Any way, I am still voting for the trimaran, two place canoe, tandam kayak..... in that order.

*Jay*

[Kudzu]

I THINK your all going to be happy that I am seriously looking at Tangerine, that is what I have named (tentatively) the canoe. Listening to the comments here and a couple of others places I see the desire for a tandem canoe. Stonefly started as a person project, a fishing boat. Never intended to offer it as plans. But there was a lot of positive comments on the building log on a couple of forums., which I assumed meant I could make some money selling the plans. Long story short, it has not sold well at all. Therefore my aversion to designing another canoe.

But I asked and I am hearing people say they want a tandem canoe, not a double paddle, sit on the floor canoe. Scouring through the Sand Box (that is where I store boats I am 'playing' with ) I found this canoe. I had totally forgotten about it and honestly when I saw it again I was quite taken by the styling. I still don't remember designing it but obviously I did.

The more I have thought about it, the more I am really feeling this is something I need to pursue. Maybe there is a canoe niche there I have not tapped into? And it can be a test bed for a couple of new ideas on skinning.

Also looking at pulling/rowing boats. This is a personal project that might go public. I have a design that has been on the web site for some time, Sweetbriar. I am seriously looking at it again.

I am also looking at designing a simple drop in sliding seat rowing unit. Sweetbriar might be my test bed for it. If I can make that work I am thinking ahead to working on a long skinny recreational go-fast rowing boat. Not a scull, but something with some stability. But one step at a time. I have way more ideas than I can possibly pursue.

[Kudzu]

Jay, all those are in the Sandbox. I have a decent looking true tandem kayak design. Far from finished but promising. I need a semi-trailer to store all the stuff I would like to build. So I have to pick and choose carefully.

I have decided to place my Stonefly and Slingshot up for sale this spring. I have a S&G hanging on the ceiling in the shop that I am going to pull down, refinish and put up for sale too. I have got to move some boats!!