Building CS17 #338

[Neil Brander]

I’ll be building my CS17 from a kit which I hope to receive from Graham the week after next. So I would like to introduce myself and ask some preliminary questions.

I live in the south western part of Massachusetts where I’ll be building the boat. But I’ll be sailing the boat off the south shore of Nova Scotia. This particular area has a combination of islands - some with sand beaches, rocks (plenty of them), and open ocean. The boat will be put in once a season from a launch about 2 miles away and then moored for the entire season until it is time to take it out in late September or early October. I will often be sailing the boat alone and I’m an inexperienced, to say the least, sailor.

I choose the CS17 for its shallow draft and ease of sailing. I intend to rig it with track sails with two reef points and battens. I do not intend to build in option to move the main to the third mast position since I won’t be trailer sailing and just can’t see myself moving the mast in heavy seas.

Organization Question

So my first question is what is the best way to organize my questions? Should I just continue this topic or should I start a new topic for each question?

Center Board

I’ve done a fair amount of research on the CS17 inclusive of looking at builder blogs and searching through this forum. One topic that seems to come up often is how to build and rig the center board. Some seem to weight the board, others reinforce the leading edge, and at least one person used a break away cam cleat instead of what I assume to be a bungee type cord to lower the CB. So my question is, why all the modifications and is there a consensus as to the best way to approach this issue? (Remember I will often be sailing alone.)

Trailer

Once I get the boat up to Nova Scotia, which is about a 950 mile trip, the trailer will be used just twice a year for a total of about 4 miles. When I look at trailers I can either purchase one that will accommodate a 16-17 foot boat and has a weight capacity of 1300-1500 lbs. or I can purchase a trailer that is built to hold a 14 foot boat and has a weight capacity of 800-1000 lbs. Given my driveway is curvy and narrow and the launch I’ll be using is small, I would prefer something smaller rather than larger, but at the same time I want something that will correctly transport the boat up to Nova Scotia. Graham suggested that the axles be about 10 ½ feet from the bow, but I can’t seem to find a small trailer with an adjustable axle and the trailer specs do not include this info. Any suggestions?

Thank you in advance for your help, and I look forward to sharing my boat building experiences with you.

Neil

[hokeyhydro]

Good choice for a boat. If you leave it in the water as planned you should inquire locally about bottom paint required to keep marine growth down. I believe the breakaway cleat is used on the centerboard downhaul line so that if you run over a solid object the breakaway cleat will pop up and release the line, allowing the board to kick back and up. I seem to recall they are clam cleats and easily reset - and the force required for release is adjustable. Works for rudder downhauls as well.

Trailers. Every boat trailer I'm familiar with has an adjustable axle. Axles are moved to adjust the tongue weight of your particular boat. Rule is 10% of the gross load (boat, trailer, and accessories) on the hitch ball. The 10% can be plus or minus 5% - i.e. 5% of gross or 15% of gross, but on a light rig go on the heavy side. I would also check out the smaller trailer - if the wheelbase is wide enough and the overall length close to boat length go for it. You can extend the bunks past the last trailer crossbar. If you're launching in salt go galvanized, or aluminum if you have a fat checkbook.

[Neil Brander]

Hokeyhydro,

Thank you for your reply.

I guess what I'm struggling with about the CB is what is the problem with the originator design of the CB and rigging? Is it that if you use a bungee it is more difficult to lower the CB without going forward? So then you either weight it so it drops by itself or use a brake-away cam cleat which simulates the function of the bungee but allows you to lower the CB without going forward?

And thank you for the advice about the trailer. I'll check-out those that have adjustable axles and probably go for the smallest possible which will probably leave about 3 feet of boat off the bunk.

[hokeyhydro]

Check the plans when you get the kit. I think you misunderstand how the CB works. It has an uphaul and downhaul line, not bungee. To lower one releases the uphaul line and pulls the downhaul line and then cleat it. Reverse to haul board up, and you can set board at an intermediate position to suit sailing conditions. The CS-17 plan has a nice drawing of the CB rigging.

Trailer bunks are usually 2x4 or 2x6 lumber covered with carpet. Do NOT allow 3' of boat to hang out. Make the bunks long enough to support the boat. Trailer mods are easy. I modified (with lumberyard lumber) a small EZ Loader to carry a 14' catamaran I built. Boat hangs outside the wheels and over the tail end of the trailer - all supported on bunk pads I added.

[Neil Brander]

Hokeyhdro,

Thanks again.

I've looked at some detailed pictures of the CB rigging and now understand.

When you add bunk pads what do you use for cushioning?

Neil

[hokeyhydro]

Cushioning??? Nothing. I have used 2x4 or 2x6 lumber for the bunk rails, and wrap them in carpet. Be nice if carpet was marine grade but usually it is scavenged carpet. Of course West Marine sells "bunk carpet" by the foot. Be cheaper to hit Lowes of Home Depot and by a yard or so of nice carpet off the roll. So the cushion is just carpet - all you need.

[Neil Brander]

Thanks for all the advice

[Neil Brander]

Well, I received my CS17 kit on Friday. I live on a dead end dirt road, so my wife and I met the truck at the closest intersection. We unloaded there and ferried the parts back to my shop.

I’ve spent all weekend looking them over in relationship to the plans to better familiarize myself with construction details. Graham recommended SYP for the inwales (and I believe stringers). I found a 16 foot 1x11.5 (actual size) SYP stair tread that is very clear and seemingly straight grained. Over the weekend I ripped it down and planned it to the correct dimensions for the side stringers and inwales. I understand I could also use the SYP for framing, but if I find some Fir I might use that and keep the SYP for the seat stingers, and those types of uses. I plan on using Fir for the CB . The instructions that came with the kit recommended Fir or Mahogany fo the Keel batten. And I’ll probably use Mahogany for the Keel and trim. Over the next few days I would like to familiarize myself with epoxying, filleting and taping, before I actually get started with real material.

The kit directions suggest that you should put bulkhead and transom framing in place before installing them. I plan to attach a Garelick 71040 Retractable bracket http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/outboard-motor-bracket-up-to-7-1-2-hp-115241/4,20027.html to the transom - building it out some with lumber a little larger than the mounts attachment base. The mount will handle my 2 HP Honda that weighs about 30#.

But I’m not sure how much re-enforcement I need on the inside face of the transom?

I’m also not sure were the depth of the propeller shaft should align with the bottom of the keel? (I know this question could have been asked later, but I’m talking about motor and mounts, so I figured I’d ask it now.)

Also, I see that many of the bow framing members are half mortised, but it seems that the framing that goes from the transom to the aft bulkhead is not, which seems odd to me?

Any help you can provide this novice builder would be appreciated,

Neil

[hokeyhydro]

Oh dear - an outboard! This is when one of our posters will chime in with. "You don't need a stinkin' engine!" But an engine does come in handy if you're not eager to employ oars as your alternate means of propulsion.

The Honda 2 is air cooled and comes in 15" or 20" shaft length. Although the 15/20 refers to the approximate length of the vertical shaft from powerhead to lower unit, it also is a guide to transom height, as in top of motor board to water surface. Your owners manual should have guidelines for actual depth of the propeller. If no info available, mount the engine with the cavitation plate (big horizontal fin above propeller) below the bottom say a half inch or so. You need to figure out what side to mount the bracket - port or starboard of CS rudder. Usually steering is with CS rudder with outboard fixed. But I reckon you could lift the rudder and steer with the engine - directional prop thrust can be neat.

Usually transom thickness is determined by engine clamps. They only twist down so far. On my outboard race boats 1 1/2" to 1 3/4" was standard.

Most of the transom reinforcements I've seen on this site for these itty-bitty outboards have been, IMHO, grossly overbuilt. Of course overbuilt is just several pounds extra, and if if it makes the builder feel all warm and secure than go for it. For my fav hydro class, 15 Super Stock, the transom structure was 5mm or 6mm ply faces with a few 5/8" sticks of lumber on the outside edges and a balsa core to save weight. Extra ply was added under the clamp brackets to achieve proper clamping thickness. This structure, which only weighed a few pounds, handled a 15 cubic inch 54 lb engine creating about 36 HP at 8,600 RPM under race conditions at speeds about 65 MPH.

My future build will lost likely be a CS-15 (I have plans for both 15 & 17). I'll probably add a few 2" 0r 3" strips of lumber inside the ply transom to mount an engine bracket. Vertical strips since most of the twisting force created by the outboard is vertical. I'm not familiar with the Garelick mount, but the motor board shoul be angled about 15 degrees. The Honda has trim clicks at 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 degrees, but you want to start with back tilt on the motorboard since you may need a bit of what we call "kick under" to keep the bow down, especially with the typical sailboat rocker bottom.

[Gordy Hill]

Next they'll be putting motor mounts on kayaks..............

Strengthen the transom but forget about a motor for now. This is just a little day sailer...sail it!

[Neil Brander]

Gordy,

I know that many believe that sailboats should only use wind to power the boat. And, if I wasn't a newbie sailor who is sailing in an area with lots of rocks and with many narrow approaches, I too might adopt that attitude. But for now a motor will give me the confidence to let me sail with less worry and, hopefully, become a better sailor sooner. Maybe once i gain confidence...

Hokeyhydro,

Thanks for the advice.

After reviewing previous posts on the subject and reading your post I decided to re-enforce the transom with 3/4 stock of an appropriate width to accommodate the width of the motor mount and glue it vertically as you suggest. And then secure the motor mount to the beefed-up transom with bolts, bumper washes, lock washers and nuts.

After reading your post I did check the Honda Manual and it said to mount the motor so that the anti-cavitation plate is 0.8 to 2 inches below the bottom of the boat - pretty much what you said. But does that mean below the bottom of the transom or below the bottom of the keel? The picture in the manual does not show a boat with a keel.

thanks for all your help,

Neil

[hokeyhydro]

Bottom of the transom since the mount will offset from the keel. If the prop ventilates in whatever seas you normally run in, then drop the engine down a bit. You're not going for speed so running it a tad deep (like 2") is no problem. On the planing hull runabout I had when I was a wee pup speed was my goal so I would jack the engine up with shim sticks (paint stirrers work well) until the prop would show a hint of ventilation (AKA cavitation) in a hard turn. I also planed the aft couple feet of the keel down to zero at the transom. Did a bunch of stuff to the engine as well and had my rig (Mark 25 Merc on a 14' ply runabout) honking along at 40+ MPH.

But I was 13 then - now I'm dreaming quiet cat ketch and lazy days on the sounds.

[Neil Brander]

Got it, thanks

[Gordy Hill]

Ok, I see your point, but if you hit a rock with your prop I want to hear about it!

[rmays]

Trailer- My CS17 rides just fine (and has since 2005) on a trailer made for a 14' jonboat. There is almost 3' of boat hanging past the bunks, it would be easy to fix but there's no issues with the boat or the way it tows, and I've towed for 10 hours at a time.

Motor- Get one and use it if you want- your tides are strong "way up North" so the comfort might get you on the water more often BUT don't forget to practice sailing or rowing to the dock and into the harbor JUST IN CASE the motor lets you down.

Have you bought masts and sails yet? If not, would you be interested in purchasing my aluminum masts and sails? This sounds forward but let me explain. I was always a racer, and got the CS17 to cruise, thus outfitted it as a cruiser w/ the regular sails. But, I now race the boat and am putting together a plan for a taller, high aspect rig for better light air performance. Since you're a novice sailor the standard rig will perform just fine for you and we both benefit- Let me know if you might be interested- talk to Graham if you're concerned about buying "used" gear- and I can send pics if you're thinking about this. I might also be willing to just sell the masts w/out the sails or the sails w/out the masts.

Anyhow, good luck w/ the build- it's a neat boat and you'll have lots of fun sailing.

R.Mays

[Neil Brander]

Mays,

I'm looking for track sails with the two reef points. If that is what you are offering its probably worth more discussion. You can email me at neil@neilbrander.com

Thanks

[Neil Brander]

Well I've familiarized myself with the kit, plans and instructions;have practiced epoxy technique; have constructed the transom and bulkhead reinforcements; and epoxied the seat sides (for practice prior to the more depending hull parts) and hull sides together; and will shortly be epoxying the hull bottom pieces.

Three questions come to mind:

The hull bottom steps from 3/8 to 1/4, I assume the step should be on the inside?

My kit instructions call for the side stringers to be attached after the hull bottoms are attached to the sides, but it seems easier to attached them before since there is less mass to deal with. Is there any reason not to attach them prior to joining the sides to the bottoms via the dovetail joint?

The instructions call for rounding the inside edge of each side of the centerline seam. I assume this means the entire seam - both the 3/8 and 1/4 inch sections?

Thanks,

Neil

[cprinos]

The hull bottom steps from 3/8 to 1/4, I assume the step should be on the inside?

I put mine on the inside... have seen that done on other builds. Should be easier to fair the hull this way.

My kit instructions call for the side stringers to be attached after the hull bottoms are attached to the sides, but it seems easier to attached them before since there is less mass to deal with. Is there any reason not to attach them prior to joining the sides to the bottoms via the dovetail joint?

I wonder if this is just a difference in the kit instructions. I put stringers on before joining the side & bottom panels. Not sure it matters much.

The instructions call for rounding the inside edge of each side of the centerline seam. I assume this means the entire seam - both the 3/8 and 1/4 inch sections?

I did it for the entire seam (doesn't take long), but I think it does the most good up towards the bow where the panels meet at a more acute angle.

[Neil Brander]

Gordy - If I hit a rock with my prop I assure you, you will not hear about it!

Cprinos - Thanks for the help

[Neil Brander]

I'd like to post my progress, but I can't figure out how to include pictures?