PY number for CS boats

[MisterMoon]

Any idea on the Portsmouth Yardstick numbers for the CS17? I occasionally race with club that handicaps boats using the PY numbers. My guess is somewhere around 97 for the CS17, but I'd like more data.

For those unfamiliar with the Portsmouth Yardstick, see this link for a list of centerboard classes and ratings. The lower the number, the faster the boat.

[Alan Stewart]

I raced on Lake Jordan with the Carolina Sailing Club a few weekends ago in my new 17. (Ken Pott's old 17) with straight cut leech sleeved sails. The wind was very light and variable and everyone was just ghosting around the course with occasional puffs of excitement. The other boats in the fleet (Flying Scotts, Thistles, Lasers, a 505 and a Buccaneer 18). With our flat bottom and hard chines (at least in comparison) we were pretty well left in the dust. But we were never the last boat over the line. Ok, so a flying scott caught his rudder on the pin. Well he did but we also beat the Buccaneer pretty consistently 2 of 3 races and we were pretty head to head with them (more so than the others at least). A Bucanneer 18 has a rating of 87.0 but this one was (in my opinion) not being sailed to its full potential. I think based on that tiny bit of data that my 17 has a rating of maybe 85-87 in those light light air conditions. I believe we would have done better in 15 knots. Album

[MisterMoon]

I appreciate the data point. I do think your numbers seem a lot low. Hopefully you'll get out in race in a little more wind where you can get another data point that will confirm what you've reported. I feel pretty good that my boat is faster than my old Daysailer (98.3), I'm just not sure it's that much faster.

The base boat for PY in the USA is the Thistle at 83. I don't think we're anywhere close to Thistles in terms of speed. Their upwind SA is around 190 sq. ft. and they fly a symmetrical spinnaker downwind. They are in about the same weight range as the CS17. They definitely have a good power to weight ratio. We have a large fleet of Thistles here and they are FAST! My guess is it's somewhere north of 90 but less than 97 or so.

There is a race here next weekend where I hope to find out. Unfortunately it will be against a bunch of 22-25 small keelboats like Catalina 22's and we'll all get smoked by the J/29. The Thistles will likely be out as well, but on their own circle.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Sukie and I sailed against a Thistle last summer at Small Reach Regatta.

The Thistles owner was going on the day we showed up how he would be first to finish every day as he had the fastest boat there by far.

I just nodded my head and said "Well, Time will tell."

I had a CS 20 and Sukie had a CS 17.

We were both able to outpoint and outsail it upwind, though I have to admit it was an older glass thistle so the hull likely had lost stiffness and the sails looked to not be able to shape as well as when younger.

In 10 knts wind beam reach the Thistle could just barely edge me. A bit more wind and I know I could have walked away.

The guy had quite a puzzled look about him as we were outpointing him. And I must say he looked not too amused.

In light airs a Thistle well sailed has the upper hand with the round hull and slightly greater sail area. In heavier airs the CS can stand up to a bit more due to broader hull and firmer chines and the Thistle will be reefed down and you can be quite happy flying all sail.

Also on a CS you can deploy a Mizzen staysail and do quite nicely in reaching and running.

As the Apostle of Speed says. "Horses for Courses" different conditions will favor different boats.

In any event you can always play stupid to the race committee and let them fiugure out where to rate you. Without question as you win on adjusted too often they will take a closer look and re rate you.

[Tom Lathrop]

It is very easy to get a bad reference from a few bits of questionable data. Having raced and run many such regattas, many at the Carolina Sailing Club, I also think Allan's guess of 85 is way low for a CS17. If I had to make a guess, it would be about 95. If you beat a Thistle in any condition of course, boat or wind, it must be either great luck or a poor skipper on the Thistle.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

If you beat a Thistle in any condition of course, boat or wind, it must be either great luck or a poor skipper on the Thistle.

Or tired Thistle.

[Hirilonde]

No matter how many trials they use, no matter how many different wind conditions are used, no matter how many different sailors are part of the trials and no matter how many different boats within each class are used, no handicap system will be accurate. There are just way too many variables and under different conditions different boats handle differently. Any handicap system is just a feeble attempt to make racing different boats against each other seem competitive. In fact, it never will be a fair race if handicaps are used. Anyone who races in a handicapped fleet has to accept what it is.

If you are really competitive you have a couple choices. You can race one design. This is truly the most accurate measure of sailor against sailor. Be it match or fleet racing the only difference is the competitors. I am assuming that one considers the class design rules to be strict enough. You and I can choose any class, even bathtubs. So long as we choose the same brand and model of bathtub it becomes you against me and neither of us has any excuses for the outcome. Another option is to race in something like the Everglades Challenge where the competition is not only the skill of the sailors/paddlers/rowers, but the choice and outfitting of the boats. There is no claim that the boats are equal. The choice of boat and how it is outfitted is part of the game.

I think it is interesting to sail against other designs. It gives you the chance to see how your boat performs in the grand scheme of things. But to race competitively against each other in different boats really is not a fair competition in respect to pitting skills against each other. I guess the whole point of my post is to say that no matter what number is assigned to a CS 17 or CS 20, it will never be fair under all conditions, if even fair under any condition.

[MisterMoon]

Thanks all. I understand how no handicap system is perfect. But it's what we have and it gives me a chance to race my boat when there will never be a one-design start in my area.

Re: Everglades Challenge. It was my attempt this year in my Daysailer that prompted me to look for and purchase a CS17. But that race is as much or more about the skipper than the boat, I think.

Wasn't the Small Reach Regatta last year a real drifter? I think I saw a photo spread in WB that showed a lot of glassy seas and oars deployed.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Parts of it was dead calm. Parts of it was wind up to 10-12 knts for bits. And parts were variable with portions calm and portions gusty.

Typical Maine sailing weather.

The Day Sukie and I were leading the pack home from Lunch it was about 10 knts on the nose rhumb line to home.

I was out pointing and Sukie was making up with a bit more speed footing off a bit. She beat me by maybe 100 ft or so over a few miles of beating and the Thistle came in third.

Last day out was glass calm starting with once past the point winds picking up to 1.5 MPH apparent by Davis Wind gage off Starboard beam once past the point and we could bear off a bit.

Most boats had oars deployed and in heavy action. Once I had bore off I raised Staysail along with working sail while solo and sat on leeward side and was making 2 mph measured by GPS and sailing up through the fleet.

Comoing back form lunch winds had picked up to about 7 -8 MPH measured and was on aft quarter coming home. Bit too windy for me to fly Staysail since I had no crew with me that day.

The Caledonia Yawl piloted by Geoff Kerr was annoyingly tennacious keeping pace with me. I would have loved to have another crew that afternoon to fly staysail and be on plane rather than displacement speed.