water ballast in a CS

[sitearch]

All,

I was wondering if any of you have ever considered using water bags in a CS for ballast. I was out sailing the other day in some pretty rough winds and it would have been nice to hike less and push the envelope a little more :shock:. Have any of you ever tried using some collapsable water bags for ballast. I was figuring about 300 lbs of ballast in the bottom on the cockpit might help give some more stability when really moving and sailing alone. How crazy am I? 

Just wondering.

Bob

in Alaska

CS #199

[Guest Dennis M]

I don't know how crazy you are, but as a licensed practitioner of the psychoanalytic arts, I'd be happy to evaluate you for a mere 200 bucks.  :-P

[Peter HK]

My brother occasionally used to take out our 30 ft Bolger Folding schooner by himself. This is a boat that likes 4-5 crew for stability in a decent breeze. He used 20 litre plastic jerry cans for water ballast- 6 or 8 from memory- so about 300lbs. It certainly gave him enough stability to go sailing but was not nearly as fast as movable live ballast from a crew.

[SUKIE]

Bob, I've been thinking about adding ballast by eliminating the centerboard downhaul arrangement and adding the appropriate amount of lead to the end of the CB. I've busted the downhaul x2 by hitting rocks (unmarked, of course) and would like to try something different. Being 2 feet underwater should add quite a bit of stability.

You know, the Sea Pearls have water tanks under the benches that are allowed to fill when the boat is launched, then drained when the boat's on the trailer. This is a pretty nifty solution.

But of course if I add weight to the CB then Ray would probably outsail me . . .

[sitearch]

Yeah, Sukie, I agree it would be neat. I know that in Europe they have been using water ballast for a long time. I understand that it is because they have smaller cars to haul the boats around. Whatever, I just know that I would love to be a bit more stable when out by myself.

By the way, here is a picture of my adventure with the boys scouts in Alaska. I took 4 boys out each day in Valdez, Alaska to give them a sample of sailing. This was a light wind day but we were making way in a close reach. I was delighted to see how well my boat sits in the water with this kind of load. There was another man in the cuddy laying down.

I am the one in the yellow slicker.

Anyway, I will look into the water bags. I was thinking that I would have them made to fit near the mizzen step up against the cuddy and in the cuddy along the centerboard housing. I have a small pump that I would use to empty and fill the bags. Three hundred pounds ought to give me a little more stability. These boys were not little guys. I am 5'11" about 195lbs. They were all about as big as me. 

Anyway happy sailing,

Bob

Sorry for the quality of the picture. I just got it from my buddy who was the companion boat.

[Gordy Hill]

I've been in some pretty heavy stuff with the main wrapped around the mast and the mizzen in the center step. The boat stayed amazingly flat and just accelerated with the gusts. I was alone and certainly never considered toting along another 300 pounds or so of water. Scotch maybe, but not water.

There are boats that may need water ballast, and there are many sailors who know more about this than I do, but I think the water belongs on the outside. If the boat is designed for water ballast that's one thing. But even then I question whether the designer is trying to cover a design flaw. I have to admit that designing a boat for a limited tow vehicle makes sense. Of course, on a nice light Core Sound you could probably get the same response if you reef and then tie a couple life preservers to a line and trail them behind the boat so you'd get the same loss of performance.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Bob, I've been thinking about adding ballast by eliminating the centerboard downhaul arrangement and adding the appropriate amount of lead to the end of the CB. I've busted the downhaul x2 by hitting rocks (unmarked, of course) and would like to try something different. Being 2 feet underwater should add quite a bit of stability.

Do you have the shock cord arrangement on your down haul SUkie?

On next CS I build I will be using the pop up clam cleats in lieu of shock cord arrangement as per stock plans.

One thing I think I remember seeing on yours though is that you have screws holding the eyestrap to the board handle instead of through bolts.

On all the ones I have built I have the eyestraps opposed to each other one on either side of handle with through bolts through both of them with nuts on back side.

I would however like the self releasing clam cleat to pop off if hitting ground.

You know, the Sea Pearls have water tanks under the benches that are allowed to fill when the boat is launched, then drained when the boat's on the trailer. This is a pretty nifty solution.

But of course if I add weight to the CB then Ray would probably outsail me . . .

I am hoping to outsail you next year anyway Sukie.. I am doing my best to learn to get better.

Of course having crack trained crew with me like you do would be a big help too.

"Pat, I need you to go take your nap on the other side now...."

[PAR]

Water is a louse form of ballast. It's not very heavy, hell you can pick up a cubit foot of it, when most every other material you'd consider for ballast, would require some tackle to lift. If you're going to dedicate space to ballast, it should be condensed into a small and effective area.

Personally, I don't think ballast is as good an option as reefing.

[Guest Dennis M]

I have been wondering about solutions to the c/b downhaul arrangement. Since the board has a handle, I figured that putting a piece of hose squashed down by screws and washers on the unshaped section of board that remains in the case, popular in the UK, would work. You can adjust the screws to set the friction of the hose which rubs against the c/b case sides and holds the board in the position you put it in.

This does not solve the problem of the c/b case spitting (a mild term) water into the boat. One could fix a down haul line to the front part of the board that remains in the case and put a full cover over the slot. A drilled hole in the top of the slot cover through which you run the downhaul would put an end to water entering the boat via the c/b slot. But if you have a lot of play in the c/b and you don't use a thick enough line, you could end up in a jam. Connect the downhaul to a bit of shock cord and Bob's your uncle.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

When board and case is built as designed I have never seen water spitting from it.

[SUKIE]

Well thanks Ray, that's a good reminder that I need to build the bunk board for the stb side of the CB trunk!

And I've never had water spitting out the trunk either. Although, it would have been pretty fun to watch Pat's reaction to it. . .

I do like your solution of thru bolting the brackets for uphaul/downhauls on opposite side of the CB trunk and will do that untill spring maintenance when I can lift the boat off the trailer and remove the CB to add lead. Can anyone give me feedback on doing this? Does it offer more stability in heavy gusts? ? Will I be able to keep up with Ray in light wind?

[Tom Lathrop]

Advocates of adding 300# of water to a CS might consider what the volumeof this would be.  Its nearly 5 cubic feet and that is 1 foot square by 5 feet long.  Just where do you plan on putting it? It also need to be separated in smaller volumes to avoid free surface effects which is murder in a boat.

For Ray's notebook.  The first sail in Lapwing resulted in a great geyser spurting from the CB trunk.  Yes, I know, I know, but forgot to seal the area under the middle thwart.  It was Graham's fault since I did not have complete plans to build from

[Ray Frechette Jr]

For Ray's notebook.  The first sail in Lapwing resulted in a great geyser spurting from the CB trunk.  Yes, I know, I know, but forgot to seal the area under the middle thwart.  It was Graham's fault since I did not have complete plans to build from

From what I have heard Tom,  This is not your first experience with a trunk spurting water form not effectively sealing that area.

If you're not going to learn from your mistakes you really have no right to make them.

I did specify that when built as designed they don't spurt.  I too decided against sealing that area effectively on my first build and after that I followed directions and sealed it well.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

And I've never had water spitting out the trunk either. Although, it would have been pretty fun to watch Pat's reaction to it. . .

It might be worth it just to see the reaction to drill a small 3/16 hole aimed just right....

I do like your solution of thru bolting the brackets for uphaul/downhauls on opposite side of the CB trunk and will do that untill spring maintenance when I can lift the boat off the trailer and remove the CB to add lead. Can anyone give me feedback on doing this? Does it offer more stability in heavy gusts? ? Will I be able to keep up with Ray in light wind?

I can't imagine lead in Cboard in amount typically to be used would have much of affect in stability or righting.

Basically you are just changing board form buoyant to negatively buoyant.

I am not a big fan of heavy boards for ballast neither.  You swap one problem for another IE pivot pin wear,  lifting tackle etc.

I kind of like the positive control a  down haul line gives me.

I have unexpectedly found bottom with bungie cord and through bolted eyestraps with no damage done.  Granted as soon as I get board down I ease the down haul to take off stress on bungie cord and keep just enough tension on it to keep board down.

Wes's solution of having the releasing clam cleat is pretty good.  Hard to believe such a  thought could come from someone who thinks a motor on a CS is a good idea too.

[wkisting]

I would not want to add the weight, but if ballast were desirable and I was dead-set on adding it, this is what I would do:

Make a cross bar that spans across the cockpit, either along the aft edge of the forward center seat (where it braces the forward edge of the CB case), or crossing right over the top of the CB case just behind the aft edge of the CB slot. I would bolt it securely in place.

On the cross bar, I would mount a rail to accommodate a 150lbs. sliding weight. I would mount a block/tackle at each end of the crossbar, tied to the sliding weight, with the ends running aft. Then, a lot like a traveler, you could adjust the weight to either side, much like having a small adult hike to either side. The weight would be half the 300 lbs. you were thinking in water ballast, could be smaller because you'd be using a concentrated weight (lead or steel, probably), and would be more effective because it could be moved further to windward than any kind of tanks/jugs you might set on the floor of the CS. Adjusting it would be a matter of pulling on a line to slide weight to the opposite side as you tack.

Built right, the whole system could be removed from the boat when not wanted.

But, I've never felt the need for such a modification. I'm happy with the solo performance of our CS20, even if I can squeeze out better performance with a passenger along.

Sukie, I broke the bungee-style downhaul on our CB twice also. I've been much happier (and the boat looks a little cleaner/less cluttered) since I swapped over to a non-stretching downhaul line that runs directly aft to a breakaway clamcleat on the thwart. Works great.

[SUKIE]

Thankyou Wes, and Ray,

I bow to your superior technical analysis of the CB downhaul and will try the breakaway cam cleat. Wes, I remember your thread concerning such, but couldn't bring it up with a search. Would you mind posting your photo again showing the placement? Thanks. (I don't know what we'll all do when you go back to teaching!)

[PAR]

What's wrong with a reef instead of ballast?

[sitearch]

Thanks Wes, and all of you for your thoughts and advice.  I always get a kick out of the forum and the sometimes negative reactions to something that has been tried and proven for many years as though it was a new idea. I remember getting no response a couple of years ago when I asked for advice on Swallow Boats in Europe which use various design variations which seem to be successful. I got almost no response to my topic. Water is about 8.5lbs per gallon and when contained in an enclosed space which does not allow the water to slosh it offers very good counterbalancing weight. That would be simple to provide in water bags which could be placed on the sole and covered with floor planks to hold them down. There is nothing wrong with some extra stability when no one else wants to sail with you. The CS is very fast and gets up on plane even with a big load. I have proven that several times with 6 people on board. That is the beauty of the hull design from Graham. Which reminds me of the whole issue with motors which I will not address this time, but is just silly not to have when boating in serious waters.

The issue of extra ballast though should not be dismissed so quickly even in small boats. There are two things I am trying to get with some additional ballast no matter what the method--water or lead etc.  The first is the ability to push the boat a little harder when sailing solo without reefing-which is not that easy to do at least on my CS when underway even with sail tracks. The second is to help right the boat when and if I get dumped over while sailing solo.  The fact remains that water ballast does work and has been used in several successful designs. I was just exploring ways to help in this quest with my CS.

Sometimes I feel like I am getting scolded for wanting to do something that works well on other boat designs on my boat. That is part of the fun in building your own boat--at least I thought.

Anyway it is always fun to get a reaction from all of you--especially Ray.

Happy Sailing

Bob

From Alaska

[Guest Dennis M]

When board and case is built as designed I have never seen water spitting from it.

Well, they are built as designed. . .

[sitearch]

Okay, when I read my own post I realized that perhaps I was being negative and somewhat of a scolding attitude to  all of you who were kind enough to respond to my question. Sorry about that. My bad. I am an architect by profession and getting architects to agree is appparently as hard as getting boat builders and naval architects to agree on boat designs ie: PAR  :-D

The real problem here is that I probably just want a different kind of boat up here in Alaska than the CS can offer me. I do love my little boat though and I love letting her fly, but that is probably why I built my CS with a cuddy, a motor well and extended reverse scoop stern. Graham was kind enough to put up with me and a few months ago I finally asked  him to design a powersailor for me when he gets time from designing all of the motorboats he is involved with nowdays. A powersailor--you know a boat that both sails and motors well with a cabin etc. and maybe not even a ketch rig.  This would probably be better than trying to modify my wonderful little CS. Here in Alaska it is a delight to be able to power to where the best sailing is and then power back. 

Anyway, thanks for all of the advice-both positive and negative. I always learn from you.

Happy Sailing

Bob

from Alaska