Building Cost...Belhaven vs Princess 22

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

I saw a post that the expected cost to build the Belhaven is about 2/3 the cost of the Princess.  Is this true, or should one expect not to see much in the way of savings between the two boats...by the time you outfit them with sails, spars, trailer, etc..

[Charlie Jones]

The Princess is a quite complex boat to build. It's also a great deal larger than the Belhaven. I'm somewhat surprised that it's figured at 2/3 though. I'd think the Belhaven would be a good deal less than a Princess.

I'd suspect a bare bones Belhaven to be much cheaper than a bare bones Princess 22.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

Charlie,

I dont see much less in complication or size in the two boats.  Both have the laminated cabin roof beams, lead ballast, similar cabin details.  For just a few inches in beam and two feet in length, I dont see much of a difference.  But I only have the Princess 26 plans and neither the 22 or Belhaven. 

I am wondering about setting up a belhaven with only the vee berth and a small galley and woodstove in place of the 3rd berth.  I have a woodstove fetish!  Here in the NW USA it gets wet and cold.

[Charlie Jones]

The Princess is simply a more complex build Ray. The Belhaven looks to be pretty much the same as the Core Sound 20 in construction of the hull and decks- it uses the butterfly. The Princess uses side panels bent around a couple of frames ( one temporary) then the keelson on laid in then the bottom panel's screwed on. It's not a true "tack and tape" in comparison. Additionally you have the motor well.

Having built both a Princess and a Core Sound 20, I just think it would take longer, for the same builder. The Belhaven just looks to be a simpler boat.

[Oyster]

I have been on both boats. The inside of the Princess is a lot more mass. The motor well and seating arrangment is entirely different. The bottom is not sheet plywood construction in the Princess.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

Thanks Oyster for confirming Charlie's and Ray's comments.  I do see the difference now. 

Is there a significant difference between the two boats in sea keeping ability?  I realize it would partly depend on the keel/ballast choices.

I've built a CS20, so I have a good idea as to how much work would be involved in a Belhaven.

[Oyster]

I am going to go out on a limb and comment on a one thing that may help you. Concerning your comment about being in the cool and wet northwest, let me suggest something thats been noted by another owner in the Princess. I think with these hulls for multiple season use and from the feedback that I have heard, an insulated cabin roof and sides, with the exposed decks on the underside should be in order. This would need to be addressed if you do a sandwich construction since the headroom is figured as such that even an inch or so loss of headroom may affect your comfort zone depending on your own configuation.

When the ambient temperature outside drops and even with your body temperature, you can get some sweating which makes it a bit unpleasent. I think the Belhaven has an edge inside, at least when I visited Scott at his launching party, if you and the designer could get together a plan to do a foam cored top. Now i will put on my Nikes and hit the road.

[Charlie Jones]

I've not seen a Belhaven in the flesh but here's a couple pictures of space on the Princess. It's a pretty good sized boat.

There are a couple of cockpit lockers this size, two smaller spaces plus under bridge deck stowage-

That's me working in there-

And one of Laura working on the interior- there are three storage lockers this size each side-

[Greg Luckett]

Okay, now something else I must achieve before building my PS26:  getting a lot skinnier. ;D

I looked over the material list for the PS26 last evening and it looks like about a $15,000 material cost, without the trailer, which should be about another $1500.  Looking at the plans set, it would be about a 1500 manhour build for me too.  I need to get busy before my slave labor...er youngest sons....leave home.

[Oyster]

Gee I thought for the most of us that sleeping in foxholes were history! ;D At least get a  cushion for the misses CJ. :-*

[Guest Dennis M]

Dang! Charlie, how'd you get your fillets so fine?

[brigait1]

Don't let Charlie fool you. That picture doesn't mean there's tons of room. It just means he's a contortionist. That guy can fit anywhere. Observe exhibit A.

[Charlie Jones]

I was sorta hoping that picture would get lost

[Greg Luckett]

Ray, I am basing it on a used trailer, many available in the local area, rather than a brand new one.  The down side is they often have a stink boat sitting on them that then must be gotten rid of.  I have not shopped for one for about a year now though, and the market may have changed....but doubt it.  I bought one for the Spindrift, or a CS20 later maybe, for $400.  It is in great shape and needed nothing added.  The previous owner got rid of the stink boat.  The trailer my Oday 10 is sitting on cost me $200, came with a worn out sailboat, a good set of sails and spars, plus the cost of one tire and a set of driving lights.  The old sailboat is sitting in an outlet from our creek and has served as a play boat for about 10 to 20 kids so far.  The spars are going onto my Spindrift 12, which is the sloop version.  The really nice thing about salvaging locally is that almost everything has only seen fresh water, ergo little corrosion like the seawater areas get.

[Travis Votaw]

I can't think of any reason why you couldn't build out the inside of a Princess 22 just exactly like a Belhaven, if you wanted to.  A little piece of the CB trunk is exposed on the port side of the cabin, but it is not very intrusive.  The side berths could be moved forward to make a V berth and have plenty of room to have a longitudinal galley on the port side (even L shaped) and have a pilot berth on the starboard side. This would take out the starboard bridge deck locker, but you wouldn't miss that storage that much.  I believe you'd still have room to stow the icebox under the center of the bridge deck behind the ladder.  I kinda wish now that we'd decided to finish the inside of Pilgrim that way

Here's a pic of Pilgrim flying her stays'l on the first morning out on the TX200.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

Nice Travis!

Have you ever measured your speed and do you have a best ever speed reading?

[Travis Votaw]

Top measured speed on Pilgrim by GPS so far has been 10.5 mph ;D.  This was crossing one of the bays on the last TX200 trip.  Six, seven and eight miles per hour are pretty common with a good breeze.

The design just slips through the water with very little fuss.  The deep forefoot on the Princess eliminates a lot of slap or pounding when sailing hard.  Just guessing, I'm thinking the Princess will be a quieter ride than the Belhaven, but the Belhaven may well be the faster boat for her size, given the performance we saw on the CS 17s this year on the 200.

Pilgrim more than held her own this year against all the boats her size and could commonly sail through the fleet of all the monohulls her size.  Graham has drawn a terrific design.  Remember, though, that this sailing was all off the wind, which is Pilgrim's fastest point of sail 8).  A lot of going to weather might be a different story as to outcome.

And I repeat, she sails on her feet.  Of course, we had a lot of extra ballast with us - 21 gallons of fresh water, most of which we used, food for five days, six gallons of gasoline and an extra ice chest, and clothing for three for the week.

[Charlie Jones]

Oh boy does she ever "sail on her feet"

Here's a shot taken from Tehani- Hard to weather we were JUST edging Pilgrim- as soon as we started sheets she was in her element.

I think you can easily spot the difference in heel angle between the two boats. Travis had JUST shaken out his reefs and we SHOULD have had one in

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

Not owning either set of plans, I was not aware that the Belhaven Cabin is bigger than the P22.  I think this is something that should be stated on the web site for the plans.

I actually like having a motor in a well for a cruiser.  Keeps the motor away from the rudder and also no sheet fouling either.  Would there be room for a well in the Belhaven?  Space under the tiller is pretty much toast anyway.

You know for me...I like boats with big cabins.  Getting a large cabin in a smaller LOA is wonderful.  So many boats have pretty useless cabins and huge cockpits.  I already have a boat with a big cockpit (all cockpit).

Does the Belhaven sail on her feet, or does she heel more.

[tom151]

Oh boy does she ever "sail on her feet"

Here's a shot taken from Tehani- Hard to weather we were JUST edging Pilgrim- as soon as we started sheets she was in her element.

I think you can easily spot the difference in heel angle between the two boats. Travis had JUST shaken out his reefs and we SHOULD have had one in

If all I saw was that photo - with the rather large luffed area in the main - I would have guessed she was motor sailing!