New Builder looking at CS17

[Ken_Potts]

The saws you mentioned will do the job nicely.

If you have, or can borrow, a belt sander you can use that to make the scarfs.  Scarfing might be more difficult than butt-joining but don't be intimidated.  It's easier to make a good scarf joint than it seems like it should be.

[Joel B]

Speaking of tools.  I scored some used powerpoles and 6x6 beams today for cheap for the shop I am building.  I have a table saw, radial arm saw, 4" jointer and a variety of smaller power and hand tools. no hand planes yet.  Any recomendations on shop layout?  Overhead power?  As long as I'm building from scratch I can lay it out how I want.

Joel

[PeterP]

Ray is exactly right about the belt sanders. In more ways than he imagines. I have had my Makita for about 15 - 16 years. Bought it initially for sanding long stock but gave up on that real quick. Too noisy too fast to strip paint.  However, it has a dust bag and third time I emptied it I realized the thing was a gold mine for epoxy work. Now I have it mounted in a home made cradle screwed to the wall where it does its duty shaping small parts. And it collects WOOD FLOUR otherwise known as dust. I have never been short of wood flour since - I have gobs of that stuff -oak walnut okoume mahogany. I love my hand planes too but that is one thing they will not do. PeterP

[PAR]

A good belt sander in the hands of a well practiced person can make short work of just about any task. Most don't use the tool properly, but I've loved them for years. It ranks up there with my 7" and 10" disk sanders as some of my favorite stock removal tools.

[Ken_Potts]

  Hey Ray - My belt sander has an attachment that turns it into an outboard motor  ;D

  I don't like running a belt sander either but it will cut a scarf well in properly stacked plywood.  I might have used properly tuned handplanes to cut the scarfs for my boat if I had them at the time but the belt sander that was sitting on my bench worked nicely.  Mr Gosset was asking about what tools were needed for the build and I figured that it was more likely that he could borrow a belt sander than a properly tuned hand plane...  Do you loan your planes out?    Actually, scratch that question - You're a nice guy and you probably do loan your planes out from time to time.

  Mr Gossett - My previous statement stands:  Don't be intimidated by the scarf joint.  Whether you cut it with a noisy, nasty belt sander or a nicely tuned hand plane they're not really difficult to cut.  And if you decide to butt-join the panels with fiberglass tape joints that works well too (both joints are shown on the plans).

  When I was building my CS17 the most enjoyable time I spent was the time I spent pondering how to measure and cut the joinery.  Epoxy is a pretty forgiving material and you don't have to make furniture-quality joints to have a strong and attractive boat.

[ecgossett]

Ordered the plans and the companion CD today for a CS17...

I could use some recommendation on a good book.. Which one is most applicable to the CS17.. I was thinking Devlin's book but wasn't sure. Also does anyone know of any detailed guides for sailing/handling/rigging on a cat ketch? I have googled but only found wikipedia and this site.

V/R Edward

PS Graham I used to be a computer tech professionally, HP printers are a good deal because of warranty and they will refurbish (better quality assurance then new printers), if requested..

[Richard Whitney CS#70]

Hi

I had Devin's book when building my CS17 - found it useful addition.

[ecgossett]

These are the best prices for plywood I have found. I'm considering the Hydrocore for the bottom of the boat, we have lots of nasty shells on the river and beaches out here. Going to pick up the wood this weekend.... Anyone know of better prices?

Everything I have is excellent quality.   <-----------A Quality

I could do:

Package #1: Okoume 1088

3 sheets 3/8"  $72.10 each

9 sheets of 1/4" $57 each

Shipping $103 to a business $35 extra to a residence.

Package #2                                        <----------------------B Quality

Hydrocore Marine Plywood 1088

3 sheets of 3/8 $62.60

9 sheets of 1/4" $38.60

Shipping $103 to a business $35 extra to a residence.

Let me know to proceed.

Thanks,

ChaseWPP@Gmail.com

888.836.3379

WorldPanel.com

[Joel B]

I took EC's spreadsheet and modified it for a core sound 20.  It's all swag but I hope I am getting in the ballpark.  I took Ray's suggestion and added 1,000 more for hardware and I added 500 for tools and supplies. I zeroed out stuff i already have.  I put the plywood and epoxy estimates that Grahm has on the B&B site. I like Wes's idea for Meranti on the bottom of the hull so I put prices for that in there.  I don't know if Ray's estimate of 1,500 for hardware for the CS 17 applies to the CS 20 or if I have to bump that up. I also added 500 for solid wood.

I calculated the sails at 25% more for the CS 20.  I havn't talked to Grahm to see what the price would be for CS 20 sails. right now I have it set to buy the Dacron cloth and make the sails.  The cloth ranges from 15.50 for 4.4 oz up to about 20 for the heavier cloth.  Is making the sails doable? or is this something I should not consider and buy the sails?

If you are intereste check out the attachement and throw some advise my way

thanks

Joel

[Hirilonde]

.  Is making the sails doable? or is this something I should not consider and buy the sails?

Like everything one has never done before there is a large learning curve.  My exposure to those who have done it shows sentiment from one extreme to the other.  If they enjoy the learning and the whole experience they have positive remarks to make.  If they found it a chore it was the opposite. Know yourself and decide accordingly.  You will save money, but will it be at a cost worth while?  Also consider kits.  You can send in the specs for the sails and get the panels pre-cut for you.  I have no links for kit companies, but a search should find them. 

I bought mine from Graham.  I have other things to do and other new things to learn, but that's me.

[ecgossett]

Updated Spreadsheet!!

All I did was make a cheap/spec version for the CS17 based on used parts from Sailors Exchange or grab bags of hardware on Ebay.

Three sheets. I included the 20 on the last sheet but did not update the prices to reflect..  Now if we can find some spread sheets with performance curves, etc for the Core Sounds...

V/R Edward

[Joel B]

Dave

Thanks for the advise on the sails.  I would not be doing those but my wife thought that might be her part of the project.  She is good with a sewing machine but not much of an engineer.  Are there patterns available for the sails?  if there are not then we will almost certainly buy a kit or manufactured sails.

Edward

I took your CS 20 spreadshit and did a few adjustment for the cheap version.  Thanks it helps a lot.  I'll keep two sets of books for the project. the cheap set that I show my wife and the one with the real costs that will be password protected.  Not to mention the 3-4 grand I am spending on the shop I am building so I can build the boat

Joel

[Joel B]

Ray

I totally agree with you. Everything comes down to a make/buy decision. The boat is a winter project so the sail decision doesn't have to be made for a while.  I will be ordering the plans from Grahm in the next few weeks and then the plywood, glass and resin. that will get me started and will keep me busy for a while. in reality I won't be able to start the boat until September.  I have two research projects in Nepal and Mexico this summer and I am going to have to squeez the shop build and a re-roof of the house this summer as well.

Joel

[ecgossett]

I have emailed Graham and his ordering person but have not yet received a sail quote....

[Guest LeeH]

I think your plans set will include a sheet that lists prices for a jillion things, including sails. The only thing about making your own is that the sails probably aren't just flat sheets. I would think they have a pre-planned amount of curve built into them, which would have to be reflected in any panels you cut and sewed together. I don't own any CS sails, at this point, so somebody set me straight if I'm wrong about that.

[PeterP]

Don't Do Your Sails! Take this from a dye in the wool do it yourselfer. I just finished making a boat cover. I know what I am talking about. You will need a whole another set of gear to get into sail making. Your honey's sewing machine will not cut it on the sailcloth or several layers of it. So you go out and spend $1500 on a heavy duty job and all the other stuff. We won't even talk about the frustrations involved in redoing stuff once twice or even trice. You would have to be prepared to do 3-4 sets of sails to get even financially. Not worth it -not to me or any of my sane acquaintances. Graham's sails are good and an excellent bargain. If you want to get in the water quicker without spending all the money - delay painting. If you keep the boat under cover your epoxy will not chalk for a couple of years depending on use. You can't sail without sails but you can without paint. Just tell them it's varnished. PeterP

[Tom Lathrop]

I agree with Peter and the others who say buy your sails from Graham.  I'm a do it your selfer and make a lot of things for my boats that most others will buy but sails is not one of them.  I do have a heavy duty sewing machine, a Bernina with a big motor and I still get my sails from Graham.  I did sew up the camping cover on the BRS Loon on the B&B website because I knew of not other way to get it.  Those who choose the make their own, I have admiration for, if they make good sails.

[ecgossett]

This is my part time business www.cumberlandcanvas.com

I do mostly repairs on sails, dodgers, etc.... Lately motor cycle seats and car upholstery. Recently we even restitched a jeep skin. We have a Singer U30-33 Industrial and a Zigzag heavy duty for sails etc.

V,R Edward

[Joel B]

Tom

I talked to John Sperry the other day.  I'm going to his house to see the Loon next Friday.  He brought up some very good points about the size of the boat.  I kind of have my heart set on the CS 20 but he really likes the size of the BRS.  When he does his Baja trips he likes to pull the boat out of the water at night.  I'm not sure I will be able to to do that with the CS 20.  I plan on sailing the same area but on the mainland side out of Guaymas and San Carlos.  One of the reasons I am leaning towards the CS 20 is for that type of coastal sailing but he gave me something to think about on size.

Joel

[Tom Lathrop]

Joel,

John has remarked that the BRS is a bit small for all the gear and goods they need to carry for several weeks in remote areas like Baja.  Personally, I would go for the CS 17.  It's much bigger than the BRS 15 and still small enough to manhandle about in launching and retreiving.  Volume for storage and bigger water are much greater.  The CS17 is a big boat compared to the BRS15 or BRS17.  Sails and masts are easy enough to handle alone although I would opt for a tabernacle on the main on both CS 17 and 20.  I know some will disagree, but for me, the CS20 is getting too big for easy handling by one person. 

I am heartened to hear that John and Lynn are still enjoying Loon.  Loon has to be the most traveled small sailboat in Graham's stable of designs.