motorsailer anyone?

[Scott Dunsworth]

Please don't blame Graham or anyone else for these chicken scratchs. I was at work today trying to figure out what would be the best boat for the great circle cruise. So I scratched this out of thin air and liked it. It may very well be impossable to design or build but it would fit my future need.

She needs to have 6 foot head room except in the v bert area. 200 mile range for motoring. She needs to sail good maybe not the best but good.

I would like her to cruise at around 10 knots and a top end of 15 or so.

A nice head, a table that could be let down to a berth if need be. A decent galley.

What do you think? Have I been in the heat to long?

Scott

[Howard]

If I build a Princess 28, which is under serious consideration, the GCC is what it will be for. Doing most of it under sail....now there's a twist. With an outboard for those times...like canal work....when sailing isn't practical or possible.

But for me, doing it under sail is a personal choice. A true motor sailer would be an attractive option, as long as you have the ability to quickly drop your mast. I seem to recall several places with only 19' of vertical clearance. The Princess can handle all the shallow water, drop her masts, will actually sail (vs. having to motor because it won't sail well), and at 28 feet is big enough to live on for long periods of time, but still small enough to maintain really shallow draft and can be handled by one person.

Doing it now, with current fuel prices, would eliminate one of those boats that require 100 gallons of fuel per day. At least for me.

Was just talking this over with group I was working with last week (they live and work in the Hudson Valley) and concluded it might work to take the Erie Canal to the Great Lakes, then OUT the St. Lawrence seaway, circle back around past Nova Scotia and Maine and back down to New York City. Of course that alone would probably take the whole summer, so there wouldn't be time to transit the Great Lakes....so you have to go back down south...say the Bahama's to winter over....and return the next summer for the Great Lakes leg. Ads a few thousand miles and time. The sacrafices some people make.

[mustangermatt]

I love it. It would make sailing around here in the winter do-able with all our rain.

When you get the interior layout "scratched out" be sure to post it :-)

[Jonas]

Unless she has a semi-planning hull it will not go at 15 kn.

Apart from your speed requirements, I must say that I like everything about her, I hope Graham could be persuaded to design a 30/32 foot, offshore, shallow water, cat ketch

[sandy claws]

Scott, I haven't been to the sight for a while but how do you like the Belhaven? Why all of a sudden do you want to build a motorsailer :?: Just a burning desire to make sawdust? I love the color you painted it! (the same color I painted my flatsboat) A motorsailer is a compromise boat isn't it? Having said that, The Macgregor 26 carries a 50hp, sleeps 4, has a waterballast to make trailering easier, and you can even waterski behind it. "Course, Ya won't be makin' sawdust if you buy one of those!

I have been watching your progress on that Bellhaven. You've done a great job :!:

Rog...

[Charlie Jones]

we have friends who just sold thier Farrier F 27 tri, and bought a C-Dory 25 outboard powered straight power boat. The reason? They plan to do the Great Circle and after serious investigation, decided that the amount of sailing that would be possible was so negligible that a power boat made MUCH more sense. A 150 HP Honda 4 stroke is what they put on the C-Dory.

They still have a Suncat which they intend to keep. They'll most likely sell the C-Dory after this cruise and go back to a sailboat.

Something to consider

[Frank Hagan]

we have friends who just sold thier Farrier F 27 tri' date=' and bought a C-Dory 25 outboard powered straight power boat. The reason? They plan to do the Great Circle and after serious investigation, decided that the amount of sailing that would be possible was so negligible that a power boat made MUCH more sense. A 150 HP Honda 4 stroke is what they put on the C-Dory.

They still have a Suncat which they intend to keep. They'll most likely sell the C-Dory after this cruise and go back to a sailboat.

Something to consider[/quote']

Yep, I've always heard that motor sailers do more motoring, but a boat like a C-Dory will probably use less fuel to get you where you're going, with the possibility of getting up on a plane and getting out of harm's way at more than double the fastest motor sailer.

My wife and I have seen the C-Dory, and really like it, but I think a better choice for those of us who dream about building boats is Tom Lathrop's BlueJacket 24 -- see it at http://www.bluejacketboats.com

Even if you didn't want to build it yourself, I suspect building one of those would not be beyond the talents of any of the pros here like Charlie, and probably about the same price as a new C-Dory (C-Dorys are not cheap, even on the used market!)

[Scott Dunsworth]

Rog All I can say about my Belhaven is

She sails very easy, tacks even easyer and is very forgiving of my goofs.

The cabin is very good for two adults. She rigs fairly quickly at the ramp. I am cutting time on that chore each time out.

The only thing I hate about the boat is the one part paint and the plastic hatchs. I have been sailing her up to the dock with very little stress.

I have had her out about ten times now, 3 have been overnighters. I just used my third 3 gallon tank of fuel.

The motor sailer is a long term (hope I can do) project.

Charlie I think a motorsailer could if allowed to, make a person lazy. You know to lazy to rase the sails and the other effort sailing takes. But for me sailing is the fun satisfying part. When I have to start the out board it changes my mood. Don't get me wrong I like it being there to get me home when it goes dead calm.

What I have studied about sailing the great circle cruise is a lot depends on how much time your going to spend in the ditch and how easy your masts come down for bridges.

Scott

[Charlie Jones]

Scot- we both feel the same way about the engine. Laura absolutely hates having it running, even the new much quieter 4 stroke we have. We feel you are bucking nature where with sails up you are cooperating with her.

But I've done the entire east coast ICW- some of it three times. From Mile zero to Key West and beyond. And the Gulf ICW for the most part 4 or 5 times now.

There are many many miles where you aren't gonna sail, unles you can sit and wait for weeks for EXACTLY the correct wind.

Sure- if you have mucho time, a sailboat CAN do it. It's just not the sort of trip that would be really a SAILING expedition ya know? If you do try it in a sailing vessel, be sure you have a relliable engine.

Now cruising the Bahamas on the other hand

[Tom Lathrop]

Scott,

It's an interesting idea but doesn't sound doable within your parameters. The main problem is with mixing the motorsailer idea and the speed you want. A semi-displacement hull like this will need mucho power to make 15 knots and that doesn't jibe with long range, low cost cruising. A full planing hull will not be the best sailer. Bolger has a high speed motorsailer but he uses a big motor, about 140hp, I think. There is the Mac 26X if you can tolerate the ugly looks you get from others and be careful not to turn around when you walk away from it.

[JeffM]

Scott, figure your hull speed (max speed without planing) at the square-root of your waterline length times 1.34 to give you the speed in knots.

[john bowen]

I read a story from a site of a couple from Canada that did The Loop in a Mac 26. That was one of the things thay ran into here in the U.S., they got snubbed alot. But, ya know what, they were out there doing it.

Anyway, for those that don't know of The Loop, The Great Loop, The Great Circle (yup, has a few names).

Sailboat trip,

http://sankaty.homestead.com/intro.html

Trawler trip,

http://gaylglover.tripod.com/index.html

C-Dory 25 trip,

http://web.mac.com/patrickfowles/iWeb/Site/Welcome.html

Sailboat is still a way to go, thou only about 25-30% is duable. But, the wind do have to be with you. If one can't take down the rigging or put it up yourself, it can be an added expense (alot). That is were Graham's design comes in.

Your on the right track Scott but, plan on 6-7 1/2knots under power, as stated. Nice sketch by the way :wink:

[Garry]

Doing the Great Loop or the ICW or whatever is a great challenge and adventure which many would find worthwhile but, Like Charlie, says, you will be motoring a LOT. I have done the ICW enough (in cruising boats, 5-6 knots) and the long hours and days of motoring get boring. After the first few days, you don't stop to take the time to enjoy the nooks and crannies because you have a goal and a schedule.

I found that the distance I could cover in a day would be the distance I could travel on the freeway in an hour. That is one of the reasons that I am selling my 36 ft ketch and planning to build a 28 ft trailerable Princess. It will make short cruises in the Keys, Maine, Great Lakes, Charleston, and the Bahamas a distinct possibility instead of a huge undertaking. And it will be large enough for extended cruising with sufficient preparation.

[Guest Oyster]

People's actual age plays a big role in the type of boat that will be the best for such an undertaking. I personally have done all but the part on the Great Lakes, many many times. We have watched numerous rigs, talked to a lot of the folks, and have made a decision to forgo the true sailboat hull. Its just not possible for many reasons, but one large one is comfort and clean and dry gear for us. I don't care to make any more than 10 knots, but six knots on most ideal conditions is not enjoyment for me. I have too much I want to do, to require taking a month to go from Norfolk Va. to Miami and the keys. For me, there are only a couple of areas left on that trip that is worth the effort. Its all beginning to look the same, seawalls and condo sites. If not, its mega homes, all manicured and few places to sit in the quietness, in the evening time under any stars. On the Mississippi River, the last time I was thre, theneed to carry a fair amount of provisions was parmount.

[john bowen]

Gary, Oyster,

Was it boring the first time?

I'm keeping track with a guy out there know, he's presently up in north Mich. Lake (Mich. side). Built his own sailboat (wont mention type, not one I'd build). He started out from the Hudson River. I know, he's got a long way to go yet but, he still looks forword to the next day (his first time doing such).

But then, he hasn't hit the Florida coast line, yet!

[Guest Oyster]

Gary' date=' Oyster,

Was it boring the first time?

But then, he hasn't hit the Florida coast line, yet![/quote']

I am not sure if I can give you an honest answer. Each person, time frame and interests, along the way, plays a big role in determining if the trip is boring. I did it for over the span of 28 years, and enjoyed every minute of it, but was in most cases on a deadline. So it did get a bit boring for me because I did not actually spend a lot of time on land in each area. But as far as the type of hull to do it in, The ditch has really changed over the course of the years.

One of the biggest changes and problems when only concentrating on the ditch, in a mast type boat is the timed bridges, which some have gone to higrises, but sitting at them for hour at a time is a royal pain and is an issue when planning to make a certain point, especially in the fall of the year when daylight is limited. Of course the New York canal system requires an engine, and height is an issue also.

So you have a balancing act to do along the eastern coast with many issues taking place. I could type long essays about certain parts. But as I venture onto my next project, it will not have a mast, and will be traliable under all conditions, weight,, height, and airdynamic, a must. Depending on where I may be and family and work related issues that always come up keeping me actually half sane, , leaving the boat at a dock, which is about as expensive, and unpredictable now, you know the list keeps on growing.[sorry for the run on] Later....Gotta go back to gluing

[Garry]

Maybe I overstated. Every day on the water is better than a day in the office. It comes down to tradeoffs. I never made it up to Maine because of the time, effort and expense to get there and then get back before the season ends (all the while avoiding hurricanes and early winter storms). A traileable boat makes Maine cruising much more of a possibility. The same goes for the Great Lakes and other great summer cruising grounds.

I may never get the Princess 28 to the Virgin Islands. But I will get her to the Bahamas. Besides, I've spent more on docking or storing Rosita while I couldn't use her than it would take to charter a nice boat in the Virgins for a few weeks.

[Charlie Jones]

LOL- Oyster mentioned timed bridges- from one of my old log books this is excerpted, and highly condensed, but--

"Up anchor at 0530, down anchor 68 miles and THIRTY ONE bridges later at 1921."

68 miles in 14 hours of running. This was between Lake Worth and Miamarina.

LONG day. And there are more places like that now. Without the mast it would have not taken anywhere near that long. If I ever do that part again, it'll be on the outside!!

[Guest Oyster]

Maybe I overstated. Every day on the water is better than a day in the office. It comes down to tradeoffs. I never made it up to Maine because of the time' date=' effort and expense to get there and then get back before the season ends (all the while avoiding hurricanes and early winter storms). A traileable boat makes Maine cruising much more of a possibility. The same goes for the Great Lakes and other great summer cruising grounds.

I may never get the Princess 28 to the Virgin Islands. But I will get her to the Bahamas. Besides, I've spent more on docking or storing Rosita while I couldn't use her than it would take to charter a nice boat in the Virgins for a few weeks.[/quote']

A person must discount all of the grief, yes in most cases part of the human nature of the hunt, with doing it your way. Chartering is way ahead when it comes to dollars spent on the larger hulls, if you are just looking for a quick fix for your addiction. For me, thats not the case.

I enjoyed my time on the west coast of FLorida and will return, good Lord willing this winter. I have also not seem enough of Maine as much as I care to see at this point. But in Maine, a six week summer exists, and thats not my cup of tea for the amount of second guessing with the weather for me, personally to mess with and build a boat that fits that type of waters. Doing the big circle will require almost two seasons, if you have any other item on your plate, or so is my opinion.

[Tom Lathrop]

Just looking at the map posted above, it was agreat surprise to me to realize that I have done most of the great loop without thinking about it. Still need the Erie Canal, Lake Michigan, Chicago and Mississippi rivers down to the Ohio and I've done it.