Electric Motor

[mrthethird]

Pardon my naivity, but if a boat is powered by anything other than paddles, I'm lost.... :oops:

I have been tracking prices for the last few months, and I have noticed that bow-mounted electric motors can be had for a bit less money. I know I want/need a transom mount. So my question is, with the right ingenuity, can a bow-mount motor be transom mounted without unwanted repercussions?

[Barry Pyeatt]

Well, where to start. Bow mount motors were developed for fishing so that bass fishermen could fish off of the entire boat and have a foot controlled motor for speed control, forward, reverse and steering with a pedal rather than having a handle sticking out to foul tackle upon. They could pop them up quickly and lay them back on the deck and fire up the main engine to get back to the next fishing spot in a hurry and then drop the pivoting motor mount and start moving silently without wasting time. Tournement time is short and fishing time is wasting.

The brains of the motor are in the mount and the foot controls. Hang a platform off the back of the boat support it in a way that will allow the motor to pivot back on it and run the wiring on some of them forward to the cockpit and I suppose anything is possible. But they are less expensive used because the are generally well used and abused. Wear and tear under those conditions take a toll quickly on those motors. And they get rid of them quickly and get new ones. So a motor that is only two years old probably doesn't have much life left in it or the trophy fisherman just wants the newest more powerful gagets and fish finders sonar built in with hot coffee on the side. But with foot controls.

KISS and hang it off the back of the boat instead and it becomes a more reliable piece of equipment with a longer lifespan. And greater flexability. Get an aftermarket prop that gives you better performance for getting around rather than trolling for bass and they will actually give pretty good performance. But the props are not designed for speed or efficiency. But for fishing.

They don't rate in horsepower because they aren't designed to make them go fast, just slow and steady and stealthy. A 24 volt 70# thrust trolling motor will be overkill on one of our boats but just getting started for serious bass fishing or pushing a pontoon boat in the lake. If you want an electric outboard, they are available, but expensive. And they are quiet and powerful. And they need a lot of battery power to keep them going.

For lakes or slow moving rivers without a lot of current an electric is fine or even for salt water use if you don't have to fight fast tidal currents or narrow channels with swift moving water. Or if you are in a hurry. A 50# thrust electric will get you out and back just fine with a single 12 volt battery as long as you don't need to be in a hurry. But then why would you be in a hurry in a sailboat anyway. So unless you need more power for currents or local conditions an electric is quiet, clean, reliable and steady. Very environmentally friendly. And a solar charging system will keep your batteries charged, but you are talking serious money to do it. Two good 12 volt marine batteries up front will keep the bow down and the boat will handle better. Also give you a good half power cruising range. Plenty for an extended weekend of sailing if you are sailing and not cruising under power. Half speed is generally sufficient to give good battery life and reasonable hull speed to get you out and back. Sailing the rest of the time. But if you are several miles away and fighting a 5 knot current, you would be better off beaching it and waiting for a tidal change to get back. So plan your trips to take advantage of tidal conditions if sailing where it is a factor or in rivers where you have to work upstream to get back.

So it is a trade off and a compromise. If you like the solitude and quiet of sailing and don't like the smoke, noise and smell of a gas/oil mix, then electrics are the only way to go unless you like oars or paddles. And I recommend having them along regardless of what type of power you have. Been there, done that, many times and had to row or paddle back even with a full gas tank. Or a dead battery(s).

[mrthethird]

If you like the solitude and quiet of sailing and don't like the smoke' date=' noise and smell of a gas/oil mix, then electrics are the only way to go unless you like oars or paddles. And I recommend having them along regardless of what type of power you have. Been there, done that, many times and had to row or paddle back even with a full gas tank. Or a dead battery(s).[/quote']

Which brings another question, where do you guys stow oars on a weekender?

[adla]

Hey Brit,

I use a 55lb thrust motor that I bought from Bass Pro shops....wow did I fall in love with that store! :shock: :shock: :shock: I also have a deep cycle battery (supposed to be really good). I like the quiteness of the motor and find it to be plenty powerful at full speed. My mid-terms are next week and then I will be glad to test it out more (hehehe) since the return of 70's around here and let you know all about it. I also store my oars (neve have used them) in the cabin but over time, i will re-think this. I didn't do the bookshelves in Morgaine - she was reinforced plenty and I figured it ok to skip them so later, when I get to the interior improvements....I will make better arrangements for the oars.

a.

[adla]

oh yeah - and it was only like 200 dollars - and that is even with them shipping it over-night to me so I could launch with Steve Downs last sept...

a.

[umop_apisdn]

Barry,

This is PNW specific, but we have a number of Weekenders here, so I'll go ahead and post it rather than PM...

How necesary is a gas motor for the Puget Sound? I need to replace my motor this spring, and I'm debating the whole gas-vs-electric thing. Last summer I stuck entirely to lakes, but this summer I am getting out on the Sound for the first time (in a sail boat).

I know there are some places in the Sound that will absolutely require a gas motor, but how many? If I go with an electric, how much of the sound is "closed" to me? Am I going to spend a lot of time sitting around waiting on the tide with an electric?

I seem to recally someone on this board having problems with an electric out on the Puget Sound?

Noel

[Barry Pyeatt]

Well, Puget Sound tidal currents.

Among the best in the world so we have "World class tidal currents and tidal flows."

The situation is this in the Sound. Any narrow channels are going to have heavy tidal flows in both directions for the most part. All of that South Sound water has to go somewhere twice a day and then come back too. So it goes out the Strait of Juan de Fuca. The heaviest flow is of course at Deception Pass, so don't go there except at slack tide. Not just the flow but the eddies are dangerous for a boat that can't fly over the surface with a lot of power.

If you get a copy of the tidal flow charts, you can see just where the worst places are to try to work around. Such as under the Narrows Bridge at Tacoma. Between the major islands and minor islands all over the Sound. Between Whidby and either side of island in the narrow passages. Doesn't mean you can't sail there, because we do, but try to stay in the larger bays where tidal flows are less and more manageable.

Also just plan your trips out so you are working away against the tidal flow andn then letting it help carry you back. Just a little pre-tide check times will do it. It isn't that you can't move around, because you can even with a small electric, but you are draining battery power at a horrendous rate just trying to stay even in the slower places and you can be full power and watching yourself moving backwards at a really good clip in a heavy current. Frustrating to say the least. But then, you will learn where the heaviest portion of the flows are in any channel and where it is a little calmer and still be able to move except in the peak flow.

Solid reasons for 55# thrust trolling motors, with after market power props rather than trolling props and at least two good batteries. Then the pataience to wait out the peak flow in a quiet cove or beached until it drops off a bit. But planning is the main thing. Just check the tidal charts before deciding when and where to go.

Also some of the launches are unusable at minus tides. Frustrating indeed.

Capt. Jake and I have had the opportunity to work against currents on many of our outings. And shared the dubious honor of working the single paddle to get about 5 miles back to the launch ramp one fine day. Good workout. I think that was the last outing with a 55# thrust electric and a single battery. Second battery would have allowed us to get back. From then on it was with a 4 hp Johnson.

[Stump]

Hey Noel,

Last season I used a 55 # Riptide. I never had a problem getting where I wanted to go or ever had to wait out a tide. However, I spent many an hour slowly going where I wanted to go. Lots of headlands to get around to find the wind. Lots of currents and tides. I didn't go to the San Juans, only sailed out of Olympia (salt), Seattle (fresh and salt) and Mulkateo (salt.) I would really plan the times of my trip if I was going to the Islands, lots of awesome tides and currents up there. Same with the South Sound where it narrows down towards Olympia. See the thread where capt jake and Barry spent that wonderful afternoon attempting to get back to the dock.

I liked it cause it was very quite and worked just fine for getting to and away from the dock. If I was staying in Lake Washington, I would hang with the electric. This winter I picked up a couple of used gas motors and I am looking forward to seeing how they effect an outing on the Sound.

I didn't like it for the long slog to where the wind was.

It all depends how patiant you are. I'm not. :wink:

[Barry Pyeatt]

Oars!

What to do with the oars which on a Weekender or Vacationer are over 10 ft. long if you expect them to be any good to use. Well, lets see.

Cabin tucked into the forepeak. Awkward to say the least.

Deck......hummmmm Deck is curved, oars are not.

Cabin top.....too short and too much going on.

Side decks....to curved, too short, too cluttered, too dangerous. :?

Bowsprit back to cabin....too short but could extend forward like a narwhale. :roll:

Shrouds, WOW...two of them on each side and plenty long enough, just a couple sections of velcro tape and that would work. And it does! 8)

Boom, Yes indeed! :idea: Can strap onto either side of the boom with either end forward and a simple bracket for that end to slip into and a velcro strap at the rear end to hold them tight. Not in the way of anything, extra weight helps the main to stay flatter. Easy to get to without leaving the cockpit when needed. Not in the way when you drop the main cuz you can still bundle up the mainsail and motor without the oars being in the way. :wink:

Mast! Too many things to get fouled up upon. Last thing you need when trying to work with your halyards is to get something tangled in your oars. :oops: But, I've seen it done with a little planning and a couple well thought out brackets that help prevent things from getting hooked on them.

Personally, mine go on my boom, a 2X3 cross section rather than a round section. Heavier weight helps with sail shape and it is only 4# heavier overall than the round chair rail boom specified. That helps a lot. And then the flat sides give me a better place to place the oars in two brackets just aft of the gooseneck and a velcro strap over the handles on the aft end. Clean and neat and better sail shape to boot. Can't be all bad.

Light air performance is cut down a bit, but hey, I can take the oars off and stick them in the cabin or strap them to the shrouds as well if I need to. But oars are a lot easier to use and more productive than a paddle, but I still carry a paddle too....in the cabin strapped to the underside of the side deck. And a whisker pole and a long boathook.

Lets go sailing! 8) 8)

[Phil Gowans]

Solid reasons for 55# thrust trolling motors' date=' with after market power props rather than trolling props and at least two good batteries.[/quote']

I've looked for a power prop for my 45# riptide, but I have not had any luck. Where do I find them? Nobody here in Utah seems to know about them (these are strictly trolling motors here). Nor can I find anything on my internet searches.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Here is one link that I have used. http://www.kipawapropellers.com/index.html

This was a recomendation by my marine architect buddy in the midwest. He swears by them.

These props have worked well for a number of my friends. Three of them have them on Riptides and report significant performance improvement in the Sound. They all stated that they had greater power and were able to go further using them. But they also reported that they had a tendency to use higher power settings and they ended up with a tradeoff with decreased battery life per charge.

Since they all had muli-battery setups that really isn't a big issue with them however. All of them have larger/heavier boats that the Weekenders or Vacationers and they all use 55# thrust Riptides.

There are two drift boat friends that use them as well in the rivers and they like the difference in being able to work within the currents as compared to the standard props not be able to.

So for what its worth. I'm planning on using their props myself. But didn't mean this an endorsement of this company. Just because I'm a major stockholder is insignificant.....right? Just kidding! :roll:

[wkisting]

I glanced through this very informative thread and didn't see anyone comment on the range they get with their batteries (sorry if I missed it somewhere... I confess to skimming)

Range with an electric motor varies based on a lot of things: length, beam, boat weight, battery type, motor thrust... to name just a few. Since it's so specific to each system and the conditions it's used in, I know there's no "universal rule" about the range one can get with an electric trolling motor, but I'd like to have a better idea...

Has anyone ran their trolling motor from a fresh to dead battery? If so, could you tell us (1) what size boat you had the motor mounted on, (2) the size of your battery, (3) the thrust-rating of your motor, (4) the speed you were running it at [i.e., wide-open, half throttle, or "trolling"], (5) how far/fast you managed to go on a single charge, and (6) what conditions you were traveling in [up current, down current, no current/tide?]

I've looked into trolling motor arrangements several times, but I still don't have a good sense whether it would be reasonable, on a calm day when the wind dies, to expect a standard 50# trolling motor to be able to push 3 miles or 13 miles on a single battery charge (assuming no solar). Whenever I hear people comment on their experience with trolling motors, they always leave out some of the important particulars I mentioned above, so it's tough to "guesstimate" how a trolling motor might do on a different boat.

Thanks!

[Barry Pyeatt]

OK, from my experience. Calm water and air. Boat like a Weekender or Vacationer or even a Princess 22. Full charge on a deep cycle Marine battery, single battery. Typically a 50 or 55# thrust trolling motor, standard prop.

Good for about 6-8 hours of half speed continuous operation. Perhaps 2.5-3.5 knots. Good for a long ways, 10-15 miles is not out of the question. Further under optimum conditions and easy running. No currents to fight. Add a current or slight wind and cut that by half or more. IT decreases dramatically as you use higher power and have to fight wind and or currents or heavy wave action. But you should still be able to get back say 3 miles on a lake anyway unless you have beem motoring around all day.

Add a second battery and you are good for a weekend or more unless you are motor sailing against the wind and currents.

I like the OPtima Batteries and have had excellent success with them. There are less expensive marine batteries as well as more expensive. They are rated in amp hours. Obviously higher speeds require more battery drain and less operational time. Ray and a couple of others have worked out some good formulas to help with that. But you can see the tables on the trolling motors themselves or thier websites.

The three friends I mentioned above have glass boats that are a lot heavier than these and with dual or triple battery arrangements they cruise and play for extended weekends with no worries about getting around. You just need to keep aware of how much time you have been using it and if possible have a meter to show you how much usable charge is left.

Also, Puget Sound is a unique Marine environment. There is a lot of water that has to pass between and around a lot of islands and go somewhere twice a day. Our normal tidal range is +3 ft to a minus of 3 ft. That is +3 ft above normal high tide and -3 ft below normal low tide. Overall normal tidal range in Puget Sound can be 12-15 ft. Lot of water goes somewhere and back again twice a day, every day, 365 days a year.

[Stump]

Well, capt jake can tell you how long and the power settings he used when he conducted a battery test with Barry. :twisted: :wink:

On my Weekender I most likely never used it over 4 hrs at a time and I usually used it on about 1/2 throttle. #55 thrust, I never ran out of power using a 12 volt gel battery. That worked out to about, maybe, 8 miles. Going the distance was never an issue. Just the length of time it took to get there. :roll: increasing power never seemed to move me much faster with the electric, but seeing capt jake and his little 4 hps. made me rethink the whole electric thing...Hey Barry, any idea on the price of those props? 8) If they aren't too pricey that might be something to experiment with.

[PAR]

For reference about 70 - 75 pounds of thrust is a single HP, but the restraining factor is the prop. The prop is designed for "trolling" speeds while fishing and this limits boat speed to just a few knots. Swinging a more aggressive pitch prop will increase speed at the cost of additional battery drain and charge duration.

I just designed a Vacationer sized ketch for a fellow in the north west, sailing in the same waters. I spent some time researching the area's conditions, for hull shape and rig considerations. There are some currents in Puget Sound and the PNW that can rival hull speed and easily overwhelm a 12 VDC trolling motor. Even a 24 or 36 VDC setup would be had pressed in some areas, so maybe an afternoon ride with a borrowed trolling motor would be a good way of estimating how much punch you'll require in that area.

I use a 54 pound motor on a 2,200 pound boat, but do so around the docks and moored craft. Very occasionally I'll motor in a calm and can get a few hours at max speed, possibly 5 at a much reduced speed. If much motoring or motorsailing is required, a gas outboard is the ticket, but if just getting clear of the ramp and other limited puttering is all you need, then the quite, smell free electric option is the way to go.

[capt jake]

I haven't read the whole thread here. But I will say that I have the urge to quote Tim he Tool Man Taylor. "More Power!!" Arr Arr!!

I have a very nice, slightly used #55 electric hanging from the rafters...........................

[wkisting]

Thanks guys. Could you clarify, though, how many Amp-hours your batteries are rated for? I didn't see that mentioned.

I'm not sure if it's true, but back when I checked into the issue myself, a sporting goods salesman told me that there would be little perceptible speed difference between a 35-pound thrust troller and a 70-pound thrust troller in glass calm conditions. What sets the higher-thrust apart is merely the ability to maintain whatever speed they acheive (probably 2.5 - 3.5 kts) in increasingly rougher conditions (waves, wind, current, whatever). The recommendation he made was that you oversize the trolling motor by at least 20 lbs. more thrust than you expected to need for the conditions you expect to encounter (the store had thrust-recommendation charts for boat size, and these recommendations are what he was suggesting adding 20 lbs. over-size to).

Conceivably, even a 100-pound thrust troller would not necessarily push the boat "faster" per se. I say that just to qualify the claim that 70 lbs. is equivalent to one horsepower, which is also what I have heard, but the low-torque, low-speed design of trolling motors doesn't actually translate to match the equivalent-horsepower of a gas motor. (I know that PAR wasn't suggesting that anyway, but thought it warranted clarification).

I suppose if you're going to go electric, the trick is to find the thrust that is powerful enough to get you out of a tight spot, but small enough to minimize power drain. 50 - 65 lbs. of thrust seems to be very common for smaller boats like the Weekender and Vacationer. I'm thinking of just tossing a 30# motor on my Pocket Cruiser since I only need something to get away from, and back to, the dock at the local lake. The 5 hp outboard is too heavy... forcing the transom down enough to hurt sailing performance in light airs. Otherwise, I'm with Capt Jake and would favor the gas motor's "More Power" any day.

[Barry Pyeatt]

To give an example of what we can face up here on a more or less normal day.

Sailing near Port Townsend.

Nice bay infront of the city. Lots of room to sail and not a lot of current to contend with for the most part. Just ferry traffic. Winds are off shore most of the time from the SW or primarly westerly. Just to the North is the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Nice light house on the point seperating the two areas. Whidby Island across bay and passage to the East. Couple nice islands with some military restricted high security areas to the SouthEast. Good sailing area for about a 1 1/2 to two mile wide area by about 3-4 miles long. Protected for the most part. San Juan Islands begin about two -three miles to the North.

Now then go around the light house to the Strait and you are going to go with the current..... period. Except when it is slack tide. Then you can go most anywhere. For a brief period of time. Last time out we were going to go to another bay a little to the West along the Strait. We were in a McGregor with a 90 hp Honda on the back to help us move along. We were working against an incoming tide. We made about 2 miles in about an hour of basically full throttle work on a plane all that time. We passed a channel marker that was leaving a pretty impressive wake behind it with the current flow. We went about a half hour more and decided to just sail back and into the bay. Before we had the main set, we were moving past the channel marker at about 10-12 knots backwards. By the time we got the jib set we were back to the lighthouse and fighting the eddies. We fired up the Honda and pulled out of the current into the bay and spent the rest of the afternoon having a ball.

Current flows at more than 12 knots in Deception Pass most of the time except during slack tide, then it is just a jumble of eddies and cross currents. Some of the passages between the San Juan Islands have 10 knot currents in places. 7-8 are not uncommon. Even a 5 hp on a Weekender or Vacationer will not keep you moving against them. All you can hope for is to move across them to slower moving water. But it is interesting to be going full throttle forward against the current and seeing the people on the beach running to keep up while you are moving backwards.

But then we have ocean going freighters, Navy and Coast Guard boats and all manor of other Marine traffic to contend with too. So we sail in the bays where we have some control about right of way yielding. Also makes anchoring out interesting in many areas.

But once you sail in these waters, you are hooked. OH, it isn't a good place to live though. :roll:

[mrthethird]

Wow. I never expected this much information. You guys are awesome! 8)

Here in Utah, some lakes are closed to internal combustion engines, so electric motors are common. However, the other lakes have no restrictions. When a storm comes up here, it comes up fast. I plan on having both an electric motor and a gas motor, 5-7 hp. The gas engine will be used more . Not too many currents in the lakes, but I have relatives in Seattle, may have to haul the boat up there sometime..

Lets go sailing! 8) 8)

By all means!

[Phil Gowans]

Here in Utah' date=' some lakes are closed to internal combustion engines, so electric motors are common. However, the other lakes have no restrictions. When a storm comes up here, it comes up fast. I plan on having both an electric motor and a gas motor, 5-7 hp. The gas engine will be used more . [/quote']

What lakes don't allow combustion engines? Mabey, I'm breaking the law? I use both electric and an old British Seagull. I prefer the electric, but occasionally run it out of power. I only use the gas for trips longer than a day and other "incase of emergency" conditions.

I can atest to the high tidal current flows in the San Juans. I was in the Old Gaffers Race of 2003 around Gooch Island. The flow was expected to be quite a tidal race. When we got there we were flying the main topsail and a fisherman. We had to through up the course and rafee to make any headway. It was really weird for about an hour we were between 2 islands going 7 kts and often standing still or even going backwards. Of course no engines allowed. - Quite a thrill. Here's a picture of one of our competitors - you can see the rippeling of the water on our lee side. Current comming 'tord us, Wind from our hind quarter.