Mast hoops

[mrthethird]

Has anyone tried using 5/8" or 3/4" rope for mast hoops? Thinking about splicing the rope into hoops, them coating with epoxy. Interested in other opinions.

[Phil Gowans]

A continuous circle of rope can be made (not exactly a splice but done similar to one) and is called a grommet. These are fairly easy to make and you can find instructions in various places. I used them on my rope stropped blocks and also through my stem hole.

However, if you are planning to use rope anyway, why just not use a mast lacing. This is a traditional approach and has some advantages to hoops. I have some alternate techniques of lacing on my web site: http://www.pragdata.com/philboat/PlanLacing.html I used the lacing for a couple years and it works well and doesn't seem to catch as much as hoops. I switched to sawn ABS hoops which I like the looks of a little more. But, they can break and the lacing doesn't have that problem.

[Barry Pyeatt]

There isn't any reason not to use rope for the mast hoops but for one. The constant flexing and pulling on small rope hoops by the main sail tends to want to pull the relatively short splices apart.

Rope in itself isn't the issue as many designs use rope laced around the mast and thru the grommets on the sail and work just fine. But then that is a continuous length of rope and it tends to adjust itself for even tension and spacing.

The Weekender and Vacationer both have tapered masts per the design so hoops tend to be more or less snug at the base and quite loose at the peak. Lacing the main sail to the mast with a continuous length of rope as several of the builders have done is one solution for this. It tends to adjust itself pretty quickly to the different diameters. If the mast were the same diameter up to the point where the gaff is set then that might be more favorable to making a better situation for the hoops whether or not they were rope, plastic pipe or wire with parrel beads. One other thing is that if the mast were octagonal or round the parrel bead hoops would ride and adjust better in use.

Coating with epoxy isn't going to make them rigid, only brittle and may actually cause more issues than not coating them and allowing them to flex. Instead I would tend to make a longer splice in the single strand "Grummet" to make the actual splice cover a much broader part of the finished hoop. No need to go to a thicker rope to make it and a thicker rope would make a longer splice impractical. I would also tend to want to seize the spliced area with a tarred seine twine or marline seizing and bind that to the grommets in the sail. That would position the actual splice in a place that would keep the splice intact and help to prevent any possible separation.

As far as rope to use, I would seriously consider using 1/2" English Braids 3 strand buff polyester. It is easy to splice, holds the splice well and will hold up well thru the weather cycles. I don't think I would try to use braided line as the amount of core that needs to be buried inside would be quite long and I don't think you would have enough of a diameter in the rope to accomplish that reasonably.

The 1/2" diameter rope should be plenty strong enough for the loads that will be carried.

I would also try to maintain the surface of the mast so that it was really smooth and easy for the hoops to move upon. A rounded mast would make for less chafe and wear on the rope hoops and prove a more even loading.

I saw one large wooden schooner in Hawaii that had rope hoops for its main and mizzen sails. They were originally made from hemp with seized canvas coverings on them and then treated to maintain the canvas. Now they use synthetics and still seize the canvas over them but the actual splice is approximately a third of the actual circumference. The crewman said that they end up replacing one or two of them each season and don't expect any of them to last more than three seasons in hard use sailing inter-island. He said that they work great and don't have any issues with them binding. He also said that they don't break or unravel on them they just wear to the point that it is easier to replace them and not worry. And they just make them on the mast as they need to replace them.

He also said that they make this nice creaking sound under load and it really adds to the character of the tour for their guests.

Good reference is "The Marlinespike Sailor." Also Brian Toss Rigging in Port Townsend Washington.

[ken connors]

Barry wrote "The Weekender and Vacationer both have tapered masts per the design"

my Vacationer mast was supposed to be tapered? OOPS! :shock: :roll:

im very pleased with the parrel beads, threaded with ss cable. cheap and easy, wont stretch or unravel

[capt jake]

I had the same parrel bead set-up and liked it fine also. Until we were on a long down wind run. The boom and gaff had to swing out and the parrels hung up on the 'corners' of the mast. I broke several beads in the process. I have installed my new wooden hoops and in trials in the shop, they work outstanding. If the mast were truely 'round' the parrels would work fine.

[mrthethird]

The rope hoops, for the record, are for purely aesthetic reasons. The "salty" look of rope, plus the "creaking" noise as the rope pulls agin' the mast are what I'm looking for. Lacing may or may not work, as the hemp (or manila) rope might not run through the grommets in the sail properly, or at least no easily...

The epoxy was not to stiffen the rings, necessarily, but to improve wear and keep the rings from coming apart. The twine idea would look better, all around. I'll have to look for 3 braid 1/2" hemp rope.

As I am just putting the hull sides on the boat now, the mast hoops are some moons down the road. Just trying to nail down the particulars before I get there. Chaotic organization theory in practice.

There was a thread on building your own wood pulleys, but I can't seem to find it.

By the way, building my own boat is bringing back the "Gilligan's Island" gag lines at work, for those of you old enough to remember...."Think that's gonna get you off the island, Mr. Howell?".... :evil: :? :wink:

[capt jake]

"Well sit right back and you'll hear a tale.....

[Bud_Wilson]

Mrthetherd I like the cable and beads myself hooked on with a brass snap. The snap gives it a little extra weight so it will come down with out jacking with it. All the lacing I have seen tends to hang every once in a while,and has been replaced after one season. The wood ones are fine if you can steam and bend them but the ones sawed out of ply wood are not for me. This is the good part about having your own boat. Do it your way and claim it worked the best in your test. Y'ALL COME Cap'N Bud. :wink:

[Barry Pyeatt]

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/woodenblocks/woodenblocks.htm

I also made blocks but fashioned a little differently. I was inspired by Phil Gowen's Aloha and the blocks he fashioned. I followed the concept from The Marlinspike Sailor. There is a series of fabrication photos in the Gallery.

I used elm due to its interlocking grain which really results in a strong block and still lightweight. I used, as did Phil Gowen's, the Buff Polester 3 strand from English braids. Also followed the article above for a guideline. Making the grommets isn't all that difficult, you just need to practice the splicing a bit first.

The 3 strand buff polyester is available from The Wooden Boat Foundation Chandlry or online.

http://www.woodenboat.org/store/folder.asp?f=10

http://www.thechandleryonline.com//product.asp?dept%5Fid=901&pf%5Fid=151%5FREB47060300

Finding round brass thimbles was a little more difficult, but I found them at the Duckwork's Store for the best prices anywhere.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/misc/thimbles/index.htm

[Bill Paxton]

I took Phil's suggestion and laced my sail to the mast using very soft, flexible line. I've been using lacing for five years now with no problems at all.

A couple of years ago in Key West we took a ride on a 60' schooner, and I was amused to see that those big sails were laced on, too.

[mrthethird]

Just for the info, what diameter rope did you use for the lacing?

[Bill Paxton]

I used 3/8" line for the lacing.

[umop_apisdn]

I use rope hoops. I used 1" three strand poly, formed into grommets that are about 8 inches in diameter. The larger diameter helps them slide up the mast better, and the three-strand poly is very ridged, so it holds its round shape properly.

on the side of the mast opposite the sail, I tied them all together with a line to keep them properly spaced, and to help lift them up over the hinge as I raise the sail.

The end result looks very very nice, and the sail raises and lowers without a hitch. I'll find some pictures tonight after work.

Noel

[Charlie Jones]

Just to point out - you guys are aware that SailRite sells ready made mast hoops? Wooden ones.

Not cheap, but they are available.

[umop_apisdn]

These were originally made as a quick-and-dirty way to get the boat out sailing ASAP. I had the 1" rope already, so I tied these up and found they worked quite well. Really, the only thing I don't like about them is the little orange stripe in the rope. But it doesn't bother me enough to motivate me to buy pure black rope and tie up a second set.

[mrthethird]

That's the look! Yes, Charlie, but then they'd be store-bought...

No, I saw a boat with these mast hoops, and noticed how much quieter they were than the wood or pvc hoops. Just a personal preference. I may end up lacing the sail, but for now, this is the plan.

[capt jake]

I never realized that Sailrite sold wooden hoops. I saw the plastic ones and assumed that was all they had. I just looked at them and the prices are right in the market (still ain't cheap). But they are not large enough for a Weekender mast.

[Charlie Jones]

I used 'em on the one I built. Of course, I built a round birdsmouth mast too, which would make a difference. NO more square masts on any boat I build- ever!

Got a pair of them on my 18 foot sharpie- someday I'm gonna have to rebuild those into proper round sticks too.

[Barry Pyeatt]

If you are looking for "Authentic" Wooden Mast hoops, they are also available from Pert Lowell Co. Either copper riveted or thru bolt. Finished with linseed oil (standard) or varnish at additional cost. Many sizes to choose from and about $13 for each hoop to fit a Weekender.

http://www.pertlowell.com/wood/wood.html

[capt jake]

'Rounding' out the mast was on my list of things to do this winter. I doubt that I will get to it as it would be quite a project to dis-assemble all of the rigging and re-do it.

I do wish I had made it round to begin with (knowing what I do now).