Do I really need to build out of boat wood for a daysailor

[John Stevens]

I've read stories about a guy building a boat out of popsicle sticks. Why do I need to use fir, mahogany or teak on a boat that will not sit in the water for more than a 24 hour period?

TIA,

John

[Frank Hagan]

You can get away with a lot less on a boat that lives most of the time on its trailer! Many of us have built boats from construction grade material, and it works OK for a day sailer.

But there are some tradeoffs. It is easier to make bends in high quality marine plywood, for instance, as the construction grade "Exposure 1" (ACX or "exterior plywood") stuff has stiffer cores that don't bend as easily. And if you use fir plywood, it will "check" (develop cracks) because of the way the log is cut with harder wood and softer wood on the face expanding and contracting at different rates. So most people use fiberglass cloth and resin to ensure the fir plywood doesn't check.

[Stump]

I didn't use any marine wood for my boat. Seems to be working just fine. Only trouble bending I had was that double bend at the transom and with enough pressure I got 'er done. My boat lives on a trailer.

[Barry Pyeatt]

John,

First off welcome, then where do you live? And what are you planning on building?

Totally valid question. As Frank has stated, checking of the surface is an issue with lesser quality plywood. Construction grades of plywood are mfg to cover flat surfaces to establish a relatively stable flat surface. With a boat we are looking for some different characteristics and there are some concerns that should at least be carefully weighed before diving into the project.

The quality of the actual veneers that make up the plywood sheet vary considerably with lesser quality (and much less expensive) woods going into the inner laminations. As an example much of the construction grade material in Douglas Fir plywood is actually a different species for the inner layers and the veneer sheets have a substantial number of small voids in them. You don't see them and they don't effect the ability of the plywood to be a flat surface for sheathing a wall or similar project where it will be covered up by siding or wallboard.

However, interior voids when you bend the sheet of plywood leave depressions in the surface that can't be removed and trap moisture within them that gets sealed within the wood by the finish and can cause significant decompositon (rot) in climates with freeze/thaw, hot/cold seasonal cycles.

The inner (core) laminations are also uneven thicknesses which cause the construction grades to bend unevenly and the much thinner surface veneers vary in thickness from sanded thru in spots to relatively thick by comparison. This leaves anything but an even, smooth surface to work with. You don't have much to work with as far as thickness on the surface laminations so sanding makes it worse, not better.

When you sand the surface of softwood plywoods you remove the softer grain and leave the harder annular growth rings which gives you a very uneven surface. The more you sand, the worse it gets.

So the only way to work with it if you are desiring a relatively nice finish is to cover it with fiberglass and fill the weave of the glass. This is recommended on most any plywood at any rate if you want a boat to last in the elements for any long period of time. Then you can finish the surface with any number of paint products.

In choosing lumber for the rest of the boat, stringers, frames, etc. You want straight even grain as much as possible with as few defects (knots, wild grain) as possible. Would avoid using construction grade materials generally although hand selected pieces will occasionally show up that are acceptable. Some wood are totally inappropriate for boat building generally speaking as they do not hold fasteners well or hold up well in outdoor environments. So others are just too difficult to work with to make them worth considering but the price makes them attractive.

I would also recommend going to www.glen-l.com and reading the articles on Wood Choices for boat building. There is a wealth of information on good wood choices there and worth the read.

Only you can decide what fits the budget and how long you expect the project to last. The cost of the wood materials is minor in comparison to the overall investment in the boat and its rigging, etc. So really cutting corners on plywood and lumber is really almost false savings. Doesn't mean that you can't build for less or on occasion use salvaged or recycled materials and often there are significant savings on exploring the salvage yards. And often you will get much better quality of material than you can find new, you just have to clean it up a bit first.

Of primary concern is the amount of long term upkeep and maintenance that is going to be required. A wood boat will require more maintenance and attention to small repairs than other materials. That is just life. Expect it and keep at it and it is manageable and a boat will last a long time with care and attention. But quite often the selection of a better grade of material and attention to selection of appropriate grades and species of lumber will make the amount of maintainance that is required significantly less and more managable.

Considering paint rather than varnish will cut down on a lot of upkeep as well. And choosing good paints doesn't have to increase the budget much. Finish is mostly prep work and understanding what you are trying to accomplish and protect. The actual surface finish is almost too easy, it is getting to that point that takes the effort.

Lots of help here and good advice regardless of the materials you use. Just ask, the dumb questions don't really exist unless you don't ask them. We've all been there and had to face the same choices. Regional differences dictate a lot on what is available. Same thing with advice. Different advice based upon regional considerations is totally valid. So weigh all the comments carefully. It is always your choice and your decision so consider that as well. Good people with good intentions and lots of varied backgrounds. Most are first time builders and boat owners so don't feel alone. Their experiences in building and owning, maintaining and learning to deal with a wooden boat are all over the board, some good, some bad and most all enjoyable.

So welcome, you are in good company.

[john bowen]

Vary Good Thread, Barry.

[Guest]

First off, you live in an area that has a wonderfull small wooden boat show, also including electic boats, too. This is something that I enjoy, too. One comment here from me. Small boats built with regular plywood or common woods and building with the very best quality woods, is not much difference five years from now. IN the beginning, new builders seem to make bad cuts on bad woods and bad cuts on good woods. So I will be the very first one to suggest to use the absolute worse stuff, like 1/4 inch luan and practice on it. Many people make paper boats that are scaled to size of the intended boat to help visualize the boat before hand.

Never ever cut to the exact measurement in plywoods. The reason for this is all plywoods bend differently causing a lot of misalignments in some cases. Get use to hand planes in the beginning and refine fits with them in the building process. I also use a four inche grinder to refime fits, but that takes a bit of practice to use that tool for fitting woods. Some plan sellers tell you don't worry about large cracks when you are using epoxy resins and filler in epoxy resins. Well thats a load because if you don't take the time to learn to fit rough lumber or hull woodes, your finish work, in most cases will be with super priced woods will not be any better. Don't scrimp of each step along the way, period. You don't always need to use the very best, but the labor of a good hull will far exceed any materials that you used, and your life and family's life also depends on quality work.

[John Stevens]

Thanks for the advice!

John

[john bowen]

Oyster,

Are ya talking about the Annual Wooden Boat Show? The one they hold every year in Mount Dora.

[John Stevens]

Barry,

I live in Florida and was thinking about Minuet 15.

John

[PAR]

John Bowen, the show in Mt Dora is the Antique Boat Show of Mt. Dora. The Annual Wooden Boat Show is an event put on by the folks at WoodenBoat Magazine and cycles it's location about the country each year. This year the WoodenBoat people returned to Newport, Road Island for the 14th annual show. I've been in or at the Mt. Dora show since the early 90's.

John Stevens, the Minuet 15 is a cute little boat having similar size as the Weekender, though it's "V" bottom does carry more displacement. The additional hull volume afforded by the "V" bottom permits more usable interior elbow room and better sailing lines, when heeled. Both boats have similar LOA, LWL, beam, draft and rig, but the centerboard case does divide the accommodations a little. She has more power to carry sail and also a self draining cockpit (a real plus) all in all a nice little pocket yacht. Coupled with the framing, rig, sail, fastener and sheathing kits available, plus the other pieces of hardware through their store, all conspire to make acquiring the little bits and pieces reasonably easy. Go for it . . .

[john bowen]

Hi YA PAR,

Got your E, will reply later. But yah, I did get the two mixed up. Got that wooden boat syndrome, going on. :?

About the Minuet, the design states it's a self-draining cockpit. But, in fact it's not. Unless that is, you install a scupper in the center. (I'll send some pic's with my E to ya.) It come's up now and then over on the Glen-L forum. But, I still beleave it to be a good build.