P22 "Pilgrim" - changes?

[wkisting]

Charlie mentioned in another thread that, were he to build a P22 for himself, he would've carried the cabin all the way back to the mizzen mast to increase interior room.

Charlie or Travis, if you have the time, I'm wondering whether you noticed anything else (either during the building, or now, during the sailing) that you would modify if you were to build the P22 over again--whether for function, strength, aesthetics, or basic convenience. I suppose on a related note, is there anything you wish you hadn't done?

Does anyone know if Chick (the original P22 owner) has said anything about this?

And, as always, speculation from non- and future-P22 owners is welcome too.

Thanks!

[Designer]

The reason that I designed in the bridge deck was for safety.

After deciding on the proportions for the rig and balancing it on the hull I wanted the companionway hatch as close to the centerline as possible in case of a knockdown. I have the hatch slightly to starboard and well forward of the mizzen mast to allow easy entry below and not ship water till way past 90 degrees. A small added bonus is the stowage and useful space under the bridge deck, a great space for the cooler which is usually hard to stow any where else.

As we have said many times here is that boat design is all about compromise.

[Travis Votaw]

I wish we had figured a way to limit the size of the cut-out of the bottom of the motor well. We built it according to specs (full open), and it is considerably larger than it would need to be for me to tilt my 8 hp 2 cycle Yamaha into the down position. Since the motor transom is below the waterline, there is a lot of water noise as the water boils up into the well.

I will probably try to figure out some way to decrease the size of the cut-out.

I like the bridge deck the way it is, at least for my usage. It makes a great seat when the cockpit gets crowded. Also, like Graham said, I stow my cooler under it behind the companionway ladder.

TV

[wkisting]

Travis,

I'm glad you mentioned the motor well issue. I've been looking at the plans, and it looks large to me too (I, too, have a 2-stroke 8hp outboard I plan to use). I know it would be possible to shrink it, but I wonder if Graham designed the cut-out oversized on purpose... I'm not incredibly familiar with the problems of cavitation at the prop, but perhaps the opening needs to be oversized? Or maybe Graham just wanted to make sure the opening could accommodate a wide variety of different motor sizes.

Graham?

[Guest]

Oh folks, got just the stuffings for your delima of the motor well. Been dealing with that with my rig. First I will need to know if your outboard motor discharges its water from the housing area, or through ports along the shaft. And how much does the running gear and pick up for the water extend below the bottom?

Also can you post the stern shot of your boat Travis?

[wkisting]

Oyster,

My motor is an 8 hp, 2-stroke Johnson (2004), with the water pump exhaust located under the rear corner of the powerhead (under the shroud that covers the motor). The water intake and prop exhaust are located below the waterline, of course, but how far... hmmm... depends on what I mount it on (haven't actually built a P22 yet, just thinking about it). But it is a standard 15" (short shaft) motor if that helps. Generally, I think it sits about 6" below the surface of the water if bolted to an appropriate-height transom.

[Guest]

Couple of other things I would like to know is do you steer with the motor or the tiller when you are under power? And Travis is the bottom of the motor transom and opening just a rectangle or does it taper in towards the front kinda wrapping around the shaft of the motor and meet up with the motor transom? I am headed to bed now, but maybe Graham will check in later as I will check in tommorrow.

[wkisting]

I'll probably just steer with the tiller when I build the P22... since the motor is centered and in front of the rudder blade.

I was thinking maybe a guy could build the P22's motor well so that the sides slope inward as they run to the bottom, effectively reducing the size of the well opening at the bottom, but leaving it wide near the top where the head of the motor is larger.

Just a thought. Still anxious to see if Graham has any concerns about prop cavitation though.... perhaps there's a reason the well is designed as large as it is.

[Guest]

There are several issues with the outboards that discharge water from under the cowling. First off the well needs to be wide enough and high enough on the sides to when you steer with the handle on the engine, the water is still confined inside the well area. Also many of the four stroke engines are wider than the two strokes because of the requirments for the conventiional engine and "oil pan design".

With the picture of the well on the site showing the well down a bit, this does create an issue with a folding lid as across the back of the well as the one pictured in the blue Simmons Sea Skiff. Next would be the issue of a person that does not use their engine all of the time, or prefer to sial with the engine stored away, and would like to close up the hole all together.

I made a dummy block with small pieces of hardwood, with screw bolts, the ones that have a machine thread on one end and a lag thread on the other, and predrilled the hardwod pieces and ran them in the tops of them.

I then placed threaded eyes in the side of my well, bedding them, fitting them in place with wing nuts to hold it in place. Yes there some fine tuning of the fits while the pieces are gluing in place in the blocks to get a really tight fit.

. This is for the times that I do not wish for any engine to be in place on my boat. I do plan on making another one the will allow for the shaft to fit through it, too. This does restrict any pivoting up of the engine, though, so fit and plan accordingly. But water that is discharged from the engine under the cowling still has a place to return to the sea.

I would think that you can incorporate a hinged lid in the recessed well, even when you carry the engine all of the time, and then just fold it back when you wish to tilt it up. The shot from the site shows just one shot of the well and may not represent the arrangment of others when building their own custom boat.

I have also made a rough lid for using the top of the well as my dining table when underway with the sail. The shot shows that its all unfinished,. I havew not taken the time to put any painit on it.

[Travis Votaw]

Here is a variety of pics of my motor well, etc.

The motor does not turn within the well, so you have to steer with the tiller. Will steer very well in either forward or reverse except when you are in shallow water and have to have the rudder raised up - then you got a problem, lol

The bottom opening of the well is basically a rectangle except Charlie rounded out the forward end of it as you can see in the photos.

The sides of the well are vertical. I suppose they could be slanted (wider at the top and narrower at the bottom) to more match the configuration of the motor if one so desired.

It seems to me that the bottom line is that you have to have enough room to tilt the motor down and have a large enough cutout in the transom to evacuate the water that comes up into the well.

I may experiment with some blocks of foam. They would be easy to cut out to different configurations for trial and error fitting.

[Travis Votaw]

Here's a few more.

[Designer]

The last picture on Oysters post with the 6 HP Johnson is P22 #1. The varnished panel in the bottom runs from the bottom forward up to the bottom of the transom cutout. You can see the turn buttons that can secure an insert to close off the bottom for sailing.

We did not bother with it while daysailing as the was not enough sloshing to annoy us, but it was there if we felt the need for it.

[wkisting]

Travis, thanks so much for the detailed photos. They help clarify the layout for the P22 motor well. I was having trouble imagining how deep the prop would sit under the boat, so it was nice to see. I'm assuming that's a standard 15" short shaft motor, not the long shaft 20", right?

Thanks to you also, Oyster. I had similar ideas about a hinged, fold-down panel to cover the hole. I'll have to draw up some sketches to show you my idea... it's a little different and would be very convenient, but I'm not sure if it's workable without laying out the measurements to work out the details.

Wes

[Travis Votaw]

Yep, standard short shaft motor.

[Guest]

Thanks Travis for your shots. I know my shots and rig is a bit crude as I have not really figured out a new motor and only had that antigue 3 hp that I really do no use now. So I just made a crude and temporary fix until I can do much better when I can feel and touch something, as its hard to create what I would do without actually having the known to work with.

As a good compromise, with the motor in the well, and with the discharge hole under a cowling, my first choice would be to create an insert, angling it down in the foward part allowing it to fit around the shaft part, placing cleats along the inside of the well for it to rest on and cut u shaped slots at the end of the insert for the water to drain out. I would decide the extreme height of the motor when in the up postion on the back piece and let that be the postion of the aft cleat across the transom line.

From the shape of the well, it appears to be tapered down with the top part of the well wider. Is that the case, Travis? I would think that this would be the easiest way to close it up, but still allow for the water to exhaust out in my mind the water that is exhausting will not spray anywhere with the board higher up. I hope that makes some sense.

I believe with the dogs for your hatches, that you can just pivot the board a bit and the piece would clear them too.

If you have to, another suggestion would be to use a piano hinge cross ways making the piece in two pieces, allowing it to be easier to put in place and easier to remove, hinging it upward. Just use a small knob or hole to pull it up.

[wkisting]

Let me ask a few clarification questions about the purpose and ideal arrangment for a cover on the bottom of the motor well.

First, I'm assuming the purpose and best place for a SOLID well cover used to close the well off when the motor is not being used, would be to align it flush with the rest of the hull, thereby reducing bottom friction under sail.

Second, I'm assuming the purpose and best place for a cover that fits AROUND the shaft of the motor when the motor is being used would be somewhere slightly above the waterline, to prevent prop exhaust from working its way up to the cockpit... yet still higher than the waterline so that the cover is not being churned against the prop wash causing (possible) cavitation (vibration) at the prop.

In this regard, it seems that TWO hinged covers might be the best solution. A solid cover which is hinged along the forward edge of the well, flush with the bottom (but folds up against the front face of the well while the motor is in use. AND a cut-out cover which is hinged along the aft edge of the well, but just above the waterline, and which folds down when the motor is in use, or up against the aft face of the well when the motor is not being used.

But this is assuming I understand the purpose/ideal arrangement for the different set-ups (motoring vs. sailing). I'll post a pic when I get something drawn up.

[Guest]

I could probably discuss the issue of covering the bottom and having the bottom flush if I actually knew how far up your motor ends up when you pivot it up which is also dictated by the fore and aft length of the well. I have probably gone as far as I can go in this one with just a few more points, . The only way that I speak about it, is to actually have the actual application in front of me. Even knowing the specific engine, which may change over time, if you keep that boat and change the enigne, I cannot think of much else that I could add to the above pictures without probably confusing you any further.

I do think that it goes back to the issue of does a person intend to allways leave the motor in the well? If I intend to do this boat, knowing what i see now, in my honest opinion, I would want the option of the motorwell completely closed off at the bottom of the boat while i used the boat under sail. This reason is purely from the standpoint of safety in rough water conditions.

This may change some measurments in the well. I do not know how long it would take for this to be done or even if its possible with the stock drawings. Keep in mind there are also issues of closing the well up on the top of it, surrounding the motor with a lid with the issue of air, as in some cases of sailboats that you may have seen it done, such as the Wittholtz that comes to mind.

The big problem with this is two fold, one begin in some cases this starved the engine of air and fouls the plugs. Next if you are in some sea conditions with a short shaft motor, with a sailboat, some cavitation occurs in some installations of rocker, which may or may not be an issue in the Princess boat.

I have seen in some sail drives a heavy rubber gasket around the drive to keep water out. With the size of this well at the bottom, you maybe able to use something like that mounting it on some cleats too, around the inside down low, allowing for the motor to rise up through it, too.

[wkisting]

Okay, so here's a sketch of my folding covers idea for the motor well. But it would only work (maybe, not sure) for a tapered/sloped motor well.

The light gray cover is the solid cover which folds down flush with the hull when the motor is not in use (to prevent drag under sail). It hinges on the fat blue line, which is the forward edge of the motor well, so that when folded down, it sits in line with the surrounding hull and rests on the dark blue (thin lines) cleats to either side of the well. When not in use, the cover folds up against the forward face of the well (positioned as shown). But of course this will only work if the distance from the bottom of the motor mount to the hull is at least as large as the length of the motor well (fore to aft)... otherwise the cover (light gray) will be too tall to fold up and still fit under the motor mounting bracket. Without accurate measurements, I can't tell if this is possible or not... but I'm starting to doubt.

The dark gray cover is the cover which folds around the shaft of the motor while the motor is in use, hence the u-shaped cut out. It hinges along the fat green line on the transom, just above the vertical cut-out on the transom, so it is higher up than the other cover when engaged, and preferably, above the waterline, since drag is less of an issue when under motor, and blocking prop exhaust/splash is the main concern. It rests on the thin green cleats to either side of the well.

This arrangement will only work if the motor well is tapered, with the sides of well sloping inward as you get closer to bottom (i.e., narrow opening at bottom, wide at top). Otherwise, the solid cover (light gray) will not be able to fold down past the cleats (green) which provide the resting pad for the other cover (dark gray).

Just an idea. It may not work in practice, but maybe it will spark more ideas from others.

[Joe Sundstrom]

The noise/drag created by the Princess Sharpie 22 motor well as specified in current plans disturbs me.

There must be an easy modification to minimize or prevent this and i would like to have it before i begin construction of hull #22.

I will be researching this on my own, of course, but i can never be as smart as all of us put together.

[Charlie Jones]

There really doesn't seem to be any drag when sailing with the motor tilted up. The water stream passes under the transom cutout without piling up there, so there is no drag.

The big problem is that the water stream there is NOISY!!

I think that's the one thing that bothers Travis, and it did me too when we were sailing- it's just plain noisy.

When motoring, there's no real problem- the noise is covered by the motor noise and there doesn't seem to be any drag there at all.