Too much weather helm

[JTam]

Faster tacking? IMHO, replace the club foot on the jib with jib sheets so you can back the jib. You need either speed or force (backing the jib) to counter the resistance caused by the full length keel on these boats. Without my jib I need to scull the rudder to turn the boat.

[Knut]

Florin, as you know I was on a Weekender and the properties may not be exactly the same on a Vacationer. Still, if you are experiencing a clear weather helm this could be an indication that improvement is possible. A weather helm tendency is OK and preferred, but if it is strong, the system is not well balanced and you are loosing speed because you need to use the rudder too hard.

The simplest way to reduce weather helm is by getting more sail area forward. I changed to a lapper jib with two sheets and it was like sailing a new boat. Much better speed and only a weak weather helm. It will also help if you can tilt the mast forward (in relation to current angle). Free bonus is better headroom under the boom.

If the wind was piping up with the lapper jib set, my first step was to reef the main and I would recommend two reefs in the main before changing the jib (or shortening by any other means).

A larger jib also provides techniques already described to improve on tacking. Another aspect to be aware of when tacking (I believe not mentioned) is to watch the main. I don't know exactly where in the sequence of things you experience the problem, but with a small jib and a dominating main, the main will always try and bring the bow up into the wind. If you have managed to get the bow across the wind with a very close hauled main, the main may take wind on the new tack very early (and probably before the jib) and thus push the bow back into the wind before the jib gets a chance to catch the wind and push the bow off the wind. If this does happen, make sure to release the main sheet as soon as the main is luffing and don't pull it in until the jib has got wind and has clearly pushed the bow around to the new tack.

[Craig]

This happens to all of us in the beginning Florin. It doesn't matter what type of boat either. Here

[Florin {VACATIONER}]

Really good info here guys, thanks a lot. I will have to go out there and practice some more I guess. It really seemed to me like the jib is a bit too small in comparison to other boats we've seen on the water. BTW, last Thursday after we launched I thought the wind had picked up a bit too much for my comfort and I decided to try sailing on the jib only... Maybe I've done something wrong, but it didn't seem to pull the boat at all off the docks... on the other hand it turned us downwind and pushed us across to the other docks... didn't seem that we had any rudder control...kinda scary with other expensive plastic boats around and a bowsprit out of control. We managed to miss the boats and entertain the crowds on the shore and docks... We also made the stinkpotters and PWC-ers aware of what a bowsprit and a big chain can do for damage hehehe.

Yes, we're learning a lot nowadays.

Up until Saturday we were convinced we weren't going to get a motor.... well, that changed. We may not get one this season, but next season we'll have one for sure. Sure makes departing and arriving at a busy dock a lot safer, or at least it gives one more confidence.

I think I'll be making a bigger jib for next year and a furler. I hate complicating things and adding more hardware and lines to what we already have, but I think this would be a good thing.

Does anyone have drawings and dimmensions for a larger jib?

How about the reef points? How many, and what distance from the boom?

Thanks

[Craig]

Never too many ropes Florin, never too many!

[Knut]

Sailing on jib alone is quite feasible if you have a lapper size sail, you may even be able to inch upwind. The stock jib is simply too small (and I know that I am extrapolating from Weekender here, but it sure sounds like exactly the same thing).

I would install a slab reefing (Jiffy reefing) single line system and place the first reef point about 20" up with the second (and may be the third) additional 20" up.

Roller reefing is clearly very comfortable, but I would be much in doubt installing one on a Weekender or Vacationer. Main concern from my side being the fact that it all has to be disconnected and stowed for mast down and transport and opposite for going sailing. Admittedly, I have not tried it, but sounds complicated to me. That is why I used the lapper as my standard jib and when necessary I did all the reefing on the main. If you have three reefs on the main and you play with the main sheet, you can weather very strong gusts and wind with the lapper up. As a safeguard, in case it gets real ugly, a downhaul system for the lapper jib is simple to install and you would be sure to be able to dump the jib without going forward or climbing out on the bowsprit. With the reservation that you may have to secure it to avoid flapping and catching sea on deck.

Just some input for your thoughts. Your choice of course and good luck.

[Mike Pennington]

I stopped using my first Furler for awhile, so long that I had almost for got how much I like the extra sail area. :wink:

I put one together today that works a little better it seems. Dry tested only though, I'll try it for real soon.

I did try to use a down haul system because that was the one draw back I didn't like about my old furler. However I couldn't get the tension I needed to make the furler wind the sail smoothly. Finaly had to go back to all stainless steal stay and connections. Nice turnbuckle.

I am going to make another lapper with a better shape to fit the hull line better. I could drop the current lapper another foot.

Of coarse I kept my stock stay though mine has been been moved back so my stock jib is only six inches from the mast. The sprit is a foot longer. Two feet beteen the stays. I had the for stay slip the u-bolts once in a big wind. Scared the crew with that one, but great recovery and kept in the race.

I added another chain to the stock forestay position to the striker. Though I've had no problems in the past. The wind blew while I tested it from the cock pit, I think I got a winner. I will take pictures tomorrow if I make it to the lake.

AI wanted a little something extra for the Alaska Mess-A-Bout this Aug. 28 - 29. Three Weekenders will be attending, I got to be able to keep up :roll:

I think I'm just going to reef for awhile when the wind blows. Try sailing a little less like a charging battleship.

[Florin {VACATIONER}]

That's looking pretty good there Mike. Is that jib made of tarp?

Because we wanted to get the extra headroom in the cockpit we've had to install the boom gooseneck above the hinges on the mast. Also, with the current setup of the mast guides (where the cleats are installed in according to the plans) the mast hoops and the gaff jaws wouldn't slide down over the guides... Soooo now we have to disconnect the gooseneck and gaff jaws off the mast every time we want to trailer. This takes about a minute to do, so it isn't as big a problem as it may seem. We could do the furling reefing system on the boom, but that would complicate things. Just simple reefing points would seem to me like the easy thing to do. Once I make my new and larger hoops, the mainsail should slide up and down a lot better (hopefully). Also the topping lift is in order. If I can find some dimmensions for the larger jib, I might jus whip one up in a hurry. The plastic hanks were discarded on the main for they didn't work well for us and we changed to HD hardware rightaway. We still have the plastic hanks on the jib, but we'll be getting rid of those because we want to be able to take the jib off the stay in a hurry when we want to, and the plastic hanks are a pain.... We would like to store the jib in the forepeak when not in use or when camping at anchor, to avoid having it flap around in the wind.

I installed a cockpit drain+plug last Friday. Seems to work just fine.

Don't know if it was quite evident in the pics, but we decided to use the space behind the seatbacks in the cockpit as storage. I know some of you will have some negative comments about that because we've lost some of the floatation there... We are going to add a bunch of closed cell foam in various places, and this will be one of them. We'll add foam under the deck behind the seatbacks. Now that area can be used for storing all kinds of junk, extra ropes, fishing rods, etc. I have to think of a way of draining the water which accumulates in those spaces during rain. I was thinking to drain it in the rear lockers under the seats which will drain into the cockpit floor, which drains on the ground once the plug is out.

Cheers

[Mike Pennington]

The furling sail is blue tarp. I'll take measurements when I lay out my new one. Going sailing today, kind of a late start, but what the heck.

I haven't put any flotation behind my seats, in fact my cockpit is not even glassed. I can take the seat backs off by removing a few screws. the front of seats are open too. I store a lot of stuff under there. I have some tubs that just fit.

I had planned to reshape the cockpit seating, but I haven't got around to it yet. So much to do this winter, if I ever get a garage. Building boats outside can be a pain sometimes. I want to be able to lean back against the stern and look forward.

Well I better get going. I got a boat to get wet. Pictures later in our broadcast. :roll:

[Tim Diebert]

I had asked John B for an image of his boat....because I had seen pictures of it before and thought you'all might appreciate her. He must be modest....so today I found this image while browsing through old threads on the WB forum. I ripped it off...from his post:

"at the 2003 regatta up at Kawau island. The first race of the day started but very controversially was called off just before the first boats crossed the finish line.The bigger boats had made it round but the smaller boats and another division behind us couldn't get to the weather mark as the wind died.

so we rounded up and weather cocked around to whatever wind there was, waiting. I had my new underwater camera cover thingy so ....."

[Mike Pennington]

Awsome! Nice ship!

[Mike Pennington]

I got a quick view before the security program caught up with me. I tried to repost it, didn't work. I got told I don't belong.

So I'll post a couple of my own boat

I splashed my Vacationer into Harding Lake today to test my revised fuler. Worked well, I like the KISS factor.

My next project is to cut a new sail and fill in the gap at the foot, the furling sail I am using now use to be the lapper in the stock stay position. I changed the angle and raised the hight so it don't fit no more. :roll:

[Craig]

Mike do you hae any trouble getting the fwd sail to go over when you tack? If so how do you handle it?

[Mike Pennington]

No problem, but I've been practicing. The new pvc furler works much smoother than the one with the spool. That was were my problem always seem to be due to tangles. To get the furling line, aligned to roll up smoothly, I use a fairlead.

When coming about I pull on the furling line to roll the sail up, keeping tension on the jib sheet, this is very important or the sail will role up sloppy. That is the secret, when pulling the jib sheet out, you do the opposit, you keep the tension on the furling line.

When tacking I depend on the inner jib to carry the tack, if I have crew depends on how quick I get the furler rolled out on the opposit tack.

In a heavy wind I don't use the sail, of coarse, and I can pull on the furling line to give the sail a couple of extra laps of line to keep it tight. One does have to keep track of the opposit jib sheet as well to make sure the extra slack gets pulled back through the blocks to the cock pit. Helps to have crew, but I have used the furler by myself several times.

The ideal time to use both fore sails is when the wind is just strong enough to fill both sails, which doesn't take much, up to a medium wind. With crew to help ballast the boat you can be as brave as you want. But it does get tricky, the faint hearted best stay below.

I'll take a picture of the lines today when I go back out. If uou like lots of lines you will be in paradise. One think I do is tie a knot in the ends of my lines so they can't slip through the fairleads and I trim the line to the exact length I need so there is not a lot of extra line laying in the cockpit.

Maybe I can get John Metzner to take a film clip of the sail in action at the end of this month's mess-about.

[Craig]

Now that would be cool. A film clip. Please do if possible.

[Jacob]

hi

this is my first post :n00b: but I have been reading this forum for quite a while and I remember someone asking about a centerbord and I was wondering why you couldn't have it coming up thru the hatch box ??

[JMetzner]

Film clips, hmmmm. Now there's an idea. I'll check with the keeper of the camera here at the center. I have to come up with an 'official' reason to use the camera........Ah, fluid dynamics experiments! That's the ticket!

--John M.

Fairbanks, AK.

[John B]

Sorry Tim. I had meant to find a pic. Then I recalled that I had trouble posting the image last time and yours just shows as the dreaded red x to me so.... :wink:

anyway,here's a link to an imagestation album with a bunch of photos... see if that works.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?show_all=1&id=4292011237&start=1

if it does, there are some other albums there which may be of interest. Mahurangi regattas over a couple of years etc. various dinghys through to keelers etc.

[Tim Diebert]

Funny John B....half the time that image is showing and the other half it is an X.

Thanks for the Imagestation link....amazing and exciting images. What an amazingly beautiful boat. There is one shot there of you reaching in big wind digging a big hole. It would be grand to see a sight like that on the water in real time. Man O man.

[Tim Diebert]

Hi Jacob.

and I remember some one asking about a centerbord and I was wondering why you cudint have it coming up thru the hatch box

That is just exactly what I did. If by 'hatch box', you mean the main companionway hatch....

I have a 36" long X 12" wide dagger board that fits into a case with a 33" long opening. It goes in on an angle, but ends up verticle.

As far as I know, I am the only person round these parts that has modified a Weekender to do this.