Third time was not the charm

[ltolson]

Better woodworker than sailor

We had been out a couple of times om my new Weekender and had a great time. Third time I single handed.

Winds were steady at about 10 knots. I had been having trouble tacking all day. I would stall and fall back on the original tack. I would regather momentum and hard over the tiller to get her to come around.

Well after a couple of hours I decided to call it a day. The launch was downwind so I had to make a gibe to get back. I must have been too aggressive because over she went. Over I went too.

After the initial shock, one minute sailing along on a warm sunny day the next swimming, my first thought was "Glad I had on a vest." I swam around to the hull got a foot up on the keel and grabbed the toerail and expected a struggle. But, she popped right up and I scrambled in. I reached for the bailing bucket but stoped short when I noticed the gunwales were an inch under water.

As I sat there deciding what to do next I noticed I was making headway so I grabbed the tiller and headed for shore. I was surprised at how stable these boats are when swamped. The seatbacks do have floatation.

I got to a sandbar near shore jumped out and started to bail. I figured the worst was over. Wrong! The old park ranger pulls up in his pontoon with a cute little lifeguard. He asks me if everything is OK. I said yes, no problem. He hangs around for awhile but as he is ready to leave he says " Are you sure you can make it back to the launch......SKIPPER."? With all the sarcasm he can muster. I did a double take to see if he was serious. He was. I bit my tongue and said yes. If it was'nt for the young lifeguard he would have heard how salty this new sailor can be.

I finished bailing and sailed back to the launch without any trouble. I have been out since and I am slowly regaining my confidence.

I learned:

1. Wear a vest. It eased the trauma greatly.

2. Learn from mistakes. Tacking and gibing are two different animals.

3. Theses boats are stable and won't sink with minimal floatation.

4. Add more floatation.

5. Ziplock baggies do not protect cellphones when submerged

6. There's alot of boat envy out there especially among pontoon drivers.

7. Keep your mouth shut about certain parts of your story. I have a new nickname and the T shirts and hats are pouring in.

[Steve Day]

Larry,

Glad to see you have the guts to 'fess up to the adventure. Even events like yours can help build your confidence in yourself and the boat.

All of us who have been sailing for a while have similar stories to tell. It is part of the seasoning process. I would bet that you will be telling that story for years to come.

Congratulations on coming out of your personal "christening" with no damage to anything but your pride (and the cell phone).

Steve

[Craig]

Larry, The trick it this: when caught in irons reverse the rudder hard over and let the wind push the stern around until the jib catches and pushes the nose over to your desired tack. Ease your rudder to amidships and sail away. It will work everytime. These long keels like to be driven into the tack. Don't throw the rudder full over. Get her nose moving the way you want and when the jib comes across the mast put the rudder harder down but not full over. Full over and the drag is too much and the boat stalls and falls back off the wind. Happy sailing....

[Florin {VACATIONER}]

Sound like a good lesson for me to learn, if I can learn from other people's mistakes.

Florin

[ltolson]

Thanks Craig that makes sense. I'll give it a try this weekend.

[Knut]

Larry, welcome in the club. You are not the first to flip a Weekender and for sure, you are not the last. As you may know from previous postings, I managed to do the trick on my launching day, 3rd time out from the launch area. You are right 3rd time........ :?

I can only second your lessons-learned-items. May be the most important one is to be fully aware that a stock Weekender will NOT allow bailing on the spot. You depend on getting on shore or to a sandbar or similar, to be able to get freeboard to bail. This property of the design can be changed by installing floatation, but if it has not been done, it has to influence the way you use the boat. :!: Personally, I would not go far away from land and other frequent boat traffic unless being prepared and able to carry out a bailing while in the water. Of course, this has also to be influenced by who is in the boat (kids, anyone not used to boats etc) and even more so in low temperature waters. Even if you were a better sailor than woodworker, there is no guarantee agains an accidental flip, not for you or anyone else.

Tacking a Weekender should normally go quite easy, but there is one trick to be aware of (if you are using a lapper or similar): When you start the turn you must release the jib-sheet more or less at the same time (or very shortly after start of the turn). The bow has to turn about 45 degrees before going through the wind-eye and say half of that before the jib will loose the wind and start flapping. During the first half of the turn, the jib will produce some forward force, but it is also counteracting the rudder trying to turn the boat. By releasing the sheet you will have more effect of the rudder, which should be used smoothly. It is also important to haul in the main tightly as you start the turn to push the stern over the right way for as much of the turn start as possible.

You did not say anything about it and may be I am preaching what you already know: I jibing, make sure to pull in the mainsheet thight before turning through the wind. This way the boom will move only a short distance and the risk of hard knocks in the rigging and of getting flipped is much reduced. (Sorry if I am being too obvious, but may be others are less experienced).

Congratulations on having the guts to share the story. I wonder how many have done something similar without confessing :?: :!:

[ltolson]

Knut

Thank you for the support. Your suggestions are greatly appreciated. The one thing I have noticed as a long time boater/ short time sailor is other boaters are eager to help. Maybe because sailing is so much more hands on sailors seem to be even more willing to help us rookies.

The members of this board do a great job of giving support with building and sailing. Thanks again.

ps. I'll keep posting my mistakes so we all can learn.

[Frank Hagan]

I'm a fan of the "chicken jibe", which is basically coming about twice (270 degrees) by tacking until you are headed the right direction. The few times I've tried the "controlled jibe" was scary enough ... I know if I ever flipped the boat with my wife on board I would never get her on board again. (She felt very comfortable on the P19 we just bought ... ballast does help!)

[ltolson]

It's disappointing but my daughter / cobuilder has yet to go out since the incident. She wasn't with me but the story has spooked her. I wasn't going to tell her however the first thing she said when she saw the boat was "Why are there weeds on top of the mast"?

I've read the arguments regarding ballast for Weekenders and have yet to make up my mind. I'm afraid the extra weight would sink her if she did go over.

[Knut]

In my opinion the Weekender is a dinghy with sails. There are lots of sailing dinghies around, but the main difference to the Weekender is that they do not look like a pocket cruiser with a cabin (giving the false impression) and most can be easily righted and bailed after a flip, by design.

In the choice between added floatation to facilitate bailing (righting is easy) and ballast I would go for floatation. Ballast added in the boat or mounted on the existing keel certainly helps, but it will not be a guarantee against going over. Therefore, added weight must also be compensated by added floatation (to maintain safety) and in the end there will be little space left for anything else :? . I know there are other opinions about this and the choice is yours to make.

By ensuring that the boat can be bailed (with extra floatation and suitable splash coamings) and with proper preparations before going out, both practically and mentally, sailing the Weekender is really great fun . It will also be safe and with experience, I am sure anyone can sail for months and years without flipping. The important point is the fact that it may still happen and for peace of mind , at least I wanted to have a sure way out without being dependant on help from others. The only way is to be sure that you can bail on your own. :idea: :!:

Happy sailing

[Barry Pyeatt]

Larry,

All of what you are experiencing is embarrassing to say the least. Fortunately it is the ego that takes the hardest hit and no one was hurt. There may be a few things that are contributing to your initial difficulties that you can check, just to be certain that they aren't working against you.

1) Check the amount of swing from dead center that your rudder has. In degrees. If it swings more than about 30 degrees off of center, that may be a problem. If it does swing further than that you may want to install a couple stops to limit it to about 30-35 degrees maximum. What happens is the rudder stalls when you put it hard over rather than biting into the water and helping to push the bow around. It is like trying to pull a board sideways against he current. It makes an effective brake rather than a helpful turning tool. Stops can be simple blocks that limit the movement either way. They can also be adjustable if they are like the door hinge stops that have a threaded shaft with a rubber tip on the end.

2) Check to be certain that the rudder is installed with the angled edge towards the front and the straight edge towards the back. Sometimes builders get it reversed and the high aspect rudder doesn't do what it is supposed to do. That alone can cause the boat to lag when trying to tack or gybe.

3) Does the rudder have a tapered/rounded leading edge and a tapered trailing edge? Ideally the rudder would have a cross section like an aircraft wing. This generates a sideways lift to the rudder helping its efficiency when turning, unless it swings too far and like an aircraft wing it stalls. I know, it is hard to create an airfoil shape in a 3/4" thick flat board. But even the bit if shaping that we do helps.

4) Did you install the flexible "gills" on the rudder post to close the gap to the rudder box? It may not seem like much, but these are small boats and turbulence causes drag and drag keeps the boat from performing like it should. I know, I know, they seem to be out of the water most of the time, but when you need them, such as tacking, they work to keep the water flowing smoothly over the rudder.

5) Are you using the clubfoot on the jib? When you are starting to learn the handling characteristics of a small boat, the "self tending" clubfoot really allows you some freedom from a lot of frustration. Once you get the jib set on one tack, turning to a new heading shouldn't require any attention to the jib at all until after you are on the new heading and moving out.

6) As Knut stated, learning to tack cleanly and smoothly is just a matter of practice and learning the best way to handle it. Once it becomes second nature to you it will be so smooth you'll wonder why it was so much trouble at first.

Some easy tips to help.

If you are on one tack and preparing to change to a new heading, first pick out a visual reference on the new heading that will be your aiming point. Knowing just where you want to point the bowsprit before you go that way will make a difference in how smoothly the boat turns. You don't end up weaving around which causes drag and slows the boat down.

Remember, you are going from approximately 45 degrees off the wind on one side to 45 degree off the wind to the other side. So you are making a 90 degree turn. If you don't plan it as far as a new heading you will often find yourself trying to find the wind after the bow does turn. Often with a new boat and a new skipper, we are trying to point it too high into the wind after turning and the boat stalls rather than grabbing the wind and taking off.

If you are sailing with everything tightened up nicely on one tack and heading as close to the wind as possible/practical and you turn quickly, the boat will have a tendency to stall and then pull back towards the heading you were on. Momentum is taking you one direction and if you quickly turn hard over, the rudder doesn't have a chance to get a good grab on the water and get the bow pivoting on the forward portion of the keel.

Think about the attitude of the boat as you are moving one chine down in the water, heeled over so that chine and keel are working in harmony. The rudder should be pretty neutral with only a little pressure to keep it on course. Then you change the attitude of the rudder and try to tack. The boat has to right itself first, come back to vertical on the mast, let the chine quite working and the rudder swing the bow around. Then the wind has to catch the sails and fill them to help. The boat has to heel and let the other chine now begin to work with the keel and rudder to balance the boat on a new heading. Meanwhile, during this process, you have to shift sides, duck the boom, handle the tiller and the main sheet and pick out where you are going. Wheew! A lot has to happen in a very short period of time with a boat that isn't moving very fast and doesn't have a great deal of momentum.

So...if instead of just turning hard over and trying to swing it around, if you ease off about two points and allow the boat to pick up a little speed and then swing around to your new heading in a little wider turn, everything has a chance to happen as it should. At first it may seem counter productive, but it works and it works smoothly, most of the time and it doesn't matter if the wind is light or moderate. You need the added momentum and the smoother flow across the rudder to allow it to happen.

When going into a gybe. You have to control the boom with the mainsheet. Again, this doesn't happen quickly or the boat becomes unbalanced and you loose control. If you allow the boom to just swing, its mass plus the added pressure from the wind on an uncontrolled sail will take the now unbalanced boat and over she goes. So when entering the gybe, you take in the main sheet and bring the boom back to approximately the center while you are turning gradually. Keep your weight where it is until the boom swings past the centerline, then shift your weight to the other side and settle down on your new heading, then let the main sheet out to pick up speed. On a lake such as you are sailing on there won't be any large waves that are going to swamp you from the rear quarter under the conditions you will be sailing in. So it is a matter of keeping your weight where it should be and controlling the swing of the boom with the mainsheet. Once you get used to the boat, and know how it moves and what you need to control it, you will not have any problem with a gybe or a tack.

Hang in there, the learning curve is fairly steep but not difficult.

You might want to pick up a copy of a book on basic small sailboat handling such as "Hand, Reef and Steer." Available thru the fine book store affiliate here on the forum of course. Or go to your local library and get them to order it for you if they don't have it in their system.

[ltolson]

Barry

Thanks for the lessons. The rudder is installed per plans and I did a good job of making it aerodynamic. One thing I have noticed is my holddown doesn't hold down too well and the rudder seems to kick up regularly about 30 degrees. I'm not hiting bottom so it must float up. How important is it to keep that rudder vertical.?

I do have the gills, but my tiller does go way past 30 degrees. I'll fix that.

[Tim Diebert]

Great thread....and awesome tutorial from Barry.

Itolson....sorry to read about your deal.

I will add my 2 cents worth here. All those purists please ignore.

Dude, it is not all your fault this boat does not tack well. All the advice Barry said is perfect, all accurate and great info. BUT....fact is, these boats suck to bring their head around...period.

My stock boat was the same way. Not a lack of experience here. Been sailing most of my life. I used to have to keep a paddle on the side deck for what we called 'paddle tacks'. Anything under a steady four knots breeze and you needed help to tack around. Some folks have found the same problem as you, some swear they have never had this problem. Cool.

The forefoot is just too deep. It prevents the bow from coming around like it should. I have proved that this is a fact because I removed my forefoot and re-shaped the 'keel'. My boat tacks over at any speed, every time, with zero hassle. Totally responsive and a joy to sail.

As I said, just my 2 cents worth. 8)

[Craig]

You have found a big part of the problem. The rudder must stay in the vertical position to correctly balance the force of the wind on the boat and positive heading control. One of the problems with these boats is they want to sail with their noses in the air. That is with the bow high. The addition of a little ballast helps put the nose back in the water by trimming out the weight of the crew and any motors hanging off the back. The first thing to fix is the rudder cleat so she stays down. Coming up to 30 degrees will result in your loss of at least 50% rudder authority. The swing limiters are a very good idea. Just these to things will make a world of difference in the handling of you boat. Happy sailing.....

[Stump]

Blasphemer!

Heretic!

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain :!:

We must all walk to the same drum...different is bad...everything must be by the book!!!!!!!

yeah, right :wink: Every boat is handmade by a different person and everyboat is sailed differently. Keep fiddling until you find what works best for you. Small changes first. Remember the KISS principle. Go slow. The basic design is proven sound.

Think about mounting a small cannon to handle the pwc's and others (read condenscending bureaucrats.) :twisted:

For some reason I keep coming back to that idea :?

[Frank Hagan]

Think about mounting a small cannon to handle the pwc's and others (read condenscending bureaucrats.) :twisted:

For some reason I keep coming back to that idea :?

Yes' date=' I too was at one point filled with those thoughts. But then I realized that firing a cannon in a crowded seaway would not be appropriate, and I changed my mind.

Now I advocate heat seeking missles!

[img']http://www.west.net/~lpm/hobie/archives/v1-i2/jetkill2.jpg[/img]

Of course, you do have to watch how you deploy them. You can read the full story at the Ultimate PWC Repellent site.

[Barry Pyeatt]

As Craig just stated, the rudder has to be in a down position for it to work well. A "high aspect" rudder design like this one depends upon position to make it work. If it keeps drifting up even with a rope and a cleat to tie it off, I would change the rope out for a bungee cord and stretch it a bit as you cleat it off so it will put some tension on the rudder to keep it down. The bungee also has some advantage in that it will allow the rudder to swing up if it hits something where the rope doesn't.

Sounds like you did all the right things in building. So now it is technique and practice.

I've found that over the years if I want to really enjoy the outing, I need a specific objective to work towards. I generally try to work up wind first unless the launch location makes that impossible. Then rather than just having a downwind run I will try to change that into a couple of cross wind runs (reaching). I try to pick my way points in advance so that I can see if I can make them by tacking, reaching or running to get to them. Just as with tacking, I pick a visual marker for my aiming point. Then work my way to that point. If there are markers to work for the outing as far as learning has some purpose other than just jogging around the water.

At least it does for me anyway.

[Craig]

Damn Barry, you make a lot of work out of this. I just look for a sailboat with a pretty gitl on the fore deck and follow them around all day.

[Barry Pyeatt]

I plot out a search pattern to be certain that I cover the waterfront well and don't miss anything important. :shock: Then pick the mark and follow thru with that. Been about 80% effective so far. :wink: :roll: 8)

Alway have a desitination in mind when I go cruising. But I putz around a lot when I'm alone. Then I generally work the wind and let that determine the destination. But I always try to pick the visual (fixed) markers first and then work off of them.

Getting a little heavy here I think! :roll: