Tim Diebert

How are you coming along these days Graeme? I was just re-reading this older thread and was thing you should be a-sailin that rascal by now. Fascinating process. Any new pics to share? Fellow Canucklian on the left coast with a slightly modified weekender...

OK. I get it, I think. So then the 'seats' in the cockpit will be at side deck level?. Just like a Hartley? Will you then have a coaming for back support? If this is how it goes, then there will be lots of added room below. This would also mean then that there will be a substantial 'step down' from the bridge deck into the cabin of the boat. Cool. What are you hoping for as a launch date?

Yikes. Either you type very well or you spent the whole evening answering my questions. I better be careful with these questions. Thanks for that. The only comments I would make are...winglets would adversely effect a very useful aspect of the stock rudder design. In the 'up' position...the rudder still works quite well to some degree. I let the rudder fly when heading for the beach or sailing through some thin water...happily, it still has some effect. Duckworks sells the load release cleat. Looks like the cats whiskers that. From what I have read and I have experienced with my boat, I personally don't think mast rake would be a large enough issue to explain the radical differences reported in either weather helm or helm balance or the ability to tack easily at any speed without falling off first....or for that matter just being able to carry through a low speed tack. Even if a builder goofed by a long shot....and I have not personally seen any images that would suggest anyone has.....it still would not be enough from my limited perspective. When I first traded my bike for this boat, the PO had built to plan. While trying to sort out the poor tacking issue and the weather helm issue, I moved that mast as far one way one and another as it could be moved, and it made zero difference as far as weather helm went. When I made the new smaller and much lighter mast, I was able to wedge it at deck level to wherever I wanted it. There was a lot of fore/aft movement and adjustability. I monkeyed around with different spots just to see if there was much of a difference, prior to a semi permanent location, fixed wedges and the mast boot. No difference from what I could feel. I am sure there was a difference, but pretty small I would say. Earlier in the thread Mike said that they tried a centerboard and found no improvement, Yet I found quite a radical difference. This thing holds its course and digs in like you would expect going to windward now. Previously I was able to actually see sideslip when I had close enough visual reference. It was even more apparent when sailing with other boats. I am not suggesting Mike is wrong, but rather that I am very happy with the mods made so far. The main reason for changes to the keel was to reduce the weather helm and to get boat to tack properly. Done and done. Nothing was going to fix the tacking issue other than a what I did. She is the sweetest tacking boat now by gar. On to rudder reconstruction. In my case I have actually kind of worn out the old unit. The rudder has become very sloppy in the case and bangs around too much. As well as that, the whole structure was made for the wheel steering system which I 'temporarily' modified for a tiller. I would like to make a nicer, more permanent job of the whole thing. Again, thanks for the reply. Cheers.

Thanks for bringing this thread back 'up' Jeff. Great info. Barry, your explanation of the foil and how it works was awsome. Now I finally get it. I was just about to start a new rudder for my boat, so the timing of my finally seeing this thread was perfect. I had figured on making a similar foil shape to how I did my dagger board. Would it be an improvement to increase the thickess of this foil (3/4") as you have done with your rudder.....or would it be improvement enough to duplicate that foil for my new rudder. Also, I have another question. This is the only sailboat I have sailed with a lifting rudder (which I love). Is it usual to have a way to hold it down as well as a way to keep it up? I wanted to simplify mine if I could, I've gone looking at other designs...it is hard to tell from images, but none of the others I have seen seem to have a method of keeping the rudder down. )although I could just be missing out on some obvious detail) How do the BnB lifting rudder designs work? (Beeker?) Now that I am rattling on with questions.... In notice all manner of shapes and sizes when it comes to rudder blades (speaking of the 'side view' not the profile). Could the WE rudder be improved in any way in a change of shape or mass?....and what would the effect be of a wider...or deeper rudder? Thanks in advance.

I have really enjoyed watching the progress on your boat Scott. The house bits are really giving some perspective to the whole. I am just wondering what the treatment is in the boxed in area that includes the mizzen mast? A bridge deck? An area accessed from inside? I have looked carefully at all your framed in areas aft of the house and can't quite figure out how that is going to work. Excuse me if this is a dumb question and the answer is obvious. I also checked on the Belhaven page and the answer doesn't jump out at me. Again, looking great.

You would think with the intensity of my discussion that I would be itching to start something right away. Not in my case. What I am doing is, for the first time in my life, planning out exactly what I am going to want to do well in advance of actually needing the project or starting it. I am looking at this boat I am dreaming on as being my 'end boat', my last boat. The one I am going to use every damn day once I retire. Hell, I might not even build it until I retire. I have built small boats and been involved in the building of several really huge boats and I have done extensive repairs on boats. I know exactly the amount of time and sweat that goes into such a project. I am a woodworker for a living and have been for 30 years. Right now, I am so burned out with what I do day and and day out....that another woodworking project would not appeal to me at all...no matter how badly I wanted the end result. I doubt I could get it up to go back into the shop to do more woodworking on my time off. So, that's why I figured once I slow down and do less of my usual work....I will be all tuned up for a right proper boat building fest. Ideally, I would like to build my boat 'full time' with no distractions...have the shop all to myself and the boat. (Hmmmm, now that I think of it, if I arranged the shop just right, I could build a 20 footer in there, and still have room for a full band and a party on Sat. nights) In the meantime, any spare time I get...weather permitting... goes into sailing....cuz in the end, that is really where all my interest lives. The boat is secondary.

Funny. The Myth Busters did a 'project' on that very incident as well. They duplicated those conditions. Now I know where they got thier idea...(I only saw the end of the show)

....thank you, i am now totally hip to the whole blog world. I kept hearing this term and was not sure what it meant.

Your cad drawing perfectly depicts what I was saying Dave. Did you just whip that up?....or had it already around somewhere? Yes, some of those router based tenoners work very well. I have always been a KISS principal kind of guy and just have always found a way to use what machines and fixtures I already have. I have many times bought a new machine or jig, found I did not use it ebnough, and just sold it or gave it away. My machines always have to earn there space. I have this one little disc/belt sander I never use for anything except collecting dust....the only reason he has not been ebay'd is because I think I may find a use for him some day...In the meantime I detect a minor nervous twitch every time I pass him.... Nice table firedude. That particular species of table is quite handy. Specially for you folks with nice enough houses to warent nice furniture....as you obviously have.

Nice work Cap. J As for mortise and tenons. I will interject my humble opinion. As a furniture maker of many years, I pretty well never used a traditional mortise and tenon. My usual joint was a double mortise and spline. Let me explain (This may be of interest to home hobbyist level furniture makers. ) Most mortises, unless done very parallel and square are not too accurate. If you want to use a normal wood glue (like a Titebond-UF 109 etc) then you need a tight/flat joint in order to be strong and forever. If you used epoxy, for a joint like this it would be cool, as it is a gap filler. Personally, I never use epoxy for furniture as it could never be taken apart in the future for repairs etc. On top of this, making a perfect fit tenon is not so easy as well. With a table router and a suitable technique, it is pretty easy to make perfect mortises. Make them in both pieces to be mated, then make a simple 'spline' from whatever material you have left over. You will have to round the edges of the spline to fit the rounded ends of the mortises. Much faster and a better joint. No shoulders to cut on the tenon. Just a butt joint on the 'tenon' piece. Depending on the project and your comfort level, you can glue one 'end' first and let it dry, then do the other...or do both at the same time. I have used this process for hundreds of projects, from small jewelery boxes to huge heavy hardwood doors in Teak and Oak. Most home shops have a table router and the bits needed to do mortises. I have even used this system for 'through tenons' and through tenons with wedges. Just a thought.

Super shots. Thanks for the link. So is this what a 'blog' is? A personal web page?

....oh, and I would think to use a similar system to what is in place now on my current boat. A tabernacle. The way the rig is raised and struck on the Steven Weekender is the single most clever idea of the whole plan in my mind. All the rigging stays in place, you raise up the mast, connect the fore stay(s), tighten them up and off you go. There, a complete design. Budda Bing. What kind of speed does a stock 17 achieve normally?

Thanks for the comments Garry, well said. Advice I will take to mind. Thanks for your input too Beaker. (I wasn't ignoring him...we have been emailing behind the curtain) The whole canvas dodger, and even light cabin idea is very cool and worth considering. I love the idea of having a light/ fast/beachable boat that has lots of room for sleeping and cooking. A CS 20...open with all that canvas work would be like a luxury liner as far as room goes. And the original rig could be maintained. That is certainly one way to go. Actually a 17 would be as cool and so much boat to deal with.... I have closely watched as Oyster created his last project. To my way of thinking this is the ultimate form of expression. I appeals to me very much and could be considered as an option in the end. The 'wild card' aspect of this process is what I like, but at the same time do want to have some prior info on potential performance. Perhaps I will enroll in the School of Naval Architecture for the ADD challenged.....and design my own boat and leave nice folks like Graham, John Welsford and Paul Gartside alone Brent. Thanks. As much as I admire Mr. Bolger and his work, I am not a huge fan of his designs. (A challenge to this statement would be his Chebacco....a fine beauty of line and function to my eye...but again, not quite where I want to go.) I am not interested in the gaffer as 'look' so much as my preferred functional rig.(I am not saying you did suggest this, just clearing the point....as many gaffer folks are in it for the look I am sure) I grew up sailing Marconi's both sloop and cutter. The gaffer that I now sail is only inferior on one point of sail. On all other points of sail it is superior in performance to a Marconi (as long as the spinnaker stays below decks) in my opinion. I love the feel and balance and adjustability......and I guess I am also a fan of the old timey look. Thing is though, I have always been a function over form kind of guy. I am, and have always been, a designer, though not of boats....at least not whole boats. Anything I have taken on has always been function first-form second...when the form ends up being fine it is always a bonus. As for a flat bottom, once the boat I have is gone (if ever), I will never own another flat bottomed boat. I am with you as to the performance and balance aspect of a 'normal' hull. My next hull will be V or round bottomed, but I have been surprised at how well a flat bottomed boat with some rocker does sail....it still shocks me somehow. I have always looked at this boat as somewhat of a toy (the weekender), and as I said, it basically found me, not me the boat. But having put a lot of work into changing the things I have seen as 'not quite right', I have been more than pleased with her sailing ability. I am usually the last one to get off the lake when things get freaky....and she goes very well....not fast or flash....but she goes well and and I feel good. Discussing this sort of thing is what is best about any hobby. Dreaming and making plans. Sometimes it is more fun than when the goals are met. Thanks for the offer. Graham. Thanks very much. See? You guys....doesn't that look great? Now we are talkin. Had you drawn that up previously or just for this kooky thread? If you don't mind...I photoshopped it a tad....just for fun. A five minute job with no thought to reality at this point, I just could not resist. Your comments have really got me thinking now. I love that you think a 17 could support both a light house structure and some ballast. This design now fits right into the groove I was dreaming. Thanks again. Chris. excellent link. I thought I had seen about all there was available on the net, and yet here is another great set of ideas. Thanks for that. Appreciated.

First of all. My apologies to all. I have re-read this thread from the top and I found that I have over reacted. As Tom says, " my tender psyche" may have gotten in the way here. Sorry for that. I understand what you are trying to tell me. Basically, don't mess with what we already know works well. I get that message, and I guess this really isn't the place to discuss the misuse of a given design...being a forum dedicated to the designer who's design I am suggesting messing with. If I had any brains, I would follow your advice and move on from here. But, we have already established that I haven't any brains. So I will end this thread by saying this. The boat that Charles Stock built up was a bare hull when he started. The original use of this hull was as a light weight Marconi rigged dinghy/daysailer. He managed to achieve his goal using that hull. In my interest in achieving similar goals I have searched for similar hull to start with, length, beam and overall shape. The CS 17 is the closest I have found so far. Sorry to stir up the pot here folks. Cheers, TD

Out of the corner of my eye, I can see Graham cringing behind his drafting table. To be honest, your questions make a designer cringe. Add the weight of a suitable mast and gaff plus a deckhouse to the CS17 and what have you done to the stability, among other things Something different for sure. >Ah, but if we all left boats stock where would many of the great boats and great designs be? I love to alter things, stir up the pot and question known fact. The thought that a gaff rig will be easier to rig and handle or faster than the cat ketch is wrong. Just ask anyone here who has tried both. >Wrong only as you say. I am comfortable with this rig, as I have said. At no point did I say it was going to be faster or easier to handle. I am a fan of the gaff/ cutter style rig and plan for the rig I have gone to great lengths to lighten and modernize will swap over from the boat I currently sail to whatever similar boat I end up making. The 17 fits into this catagory. Of course you can do what you want to any boat but it is wise to assume the designer knew what he was doing. Not always true, of course but feedback from the people on this forum should lend support for this particular designer. >I find your reply slightly offensive Tom. When did I indicate that Graham did not know what he was doing? I have been reading this forum for basically as long as it has been here, and I support this man in all his designs. (I admired his designs before the forum existed) Are you suggesting I am being critical of his work? Seems to me I have only praised his work and any other folks who's work I have commented on this forum and others. I really don't mean to beat you up because no one should ever be afraid to ask questions. I did mean to get your attention so that you could look at your proposals more critically. In the end, the choice of a boat by an individual is often (mostly) guided by emotions that even they don't understand or are even aware of. What is thought perfect for you now may be completely out of favor next year. May be best to just pick one that you like and go sailing without seeking to make it "perfect", whatever that is. >It is a very worthwhile excersice for me to practise restraint in this 'conversation'. Something I don't have much of. I am going to try and say this without bending any of Franks Golden Rule. If we were having this conversation face to face I would accuse you of being rude and insulting and I would politely ask you who the hell you thought you were? So where did you come up with all these assumptions...such as I have no clue what I am doing?....my ideas are guided by emotions I don't understand? WTF?

Thanks for your comments Brent. I have enjoyed your posts about sailing your CS. Not being a naval architect, my main concern over these ideas I have is in the adding of quite a bit of weight with additional structure. Is there enough buoyancy in the hull as is...or would increasing the height of the topsides be necessary? Right, I am with you on the rig. From what I have read it is quite sweet and fast. I have thought about this quite a bit. On of the key reasons for moving away from my current boat to another is to increase the speed factor. To make more miles on a given sailing day. But, as a day sailer configuration the cat ketch is great as you are free to move around just by standing up and going. Once this project had a small cockpit, side decks and house, moving around would not be so easy. absolute tests done on the same boat between a gaff rig and marconi found that the marconi created far more heel and required extra ballast.....all things considered....over the gaffer. A much lower center of effort it is said...and the same turn of speed for the most part. It would be a good discussion for sure. The one thing I do know is that whatever rig, it will have to be decided on before doing the drawings and starting construction. The main concern would be making sure the centerboard location matched the sailplan (CLR / CE) At one time I considered going to a day sailer-open boat design and using a boom tent....and I may still do that......if I DO go in that direction you can bet I would stick to the sail plan as laid out. I just see a level of security with the closed plan. If my current boat is any indication, I have sailed many times in conditions where semi solid water and spray is frequently coming over the boat. In an open boat I could see everything in it getting pretty damn wet. (now that I think of it, I have never sailed an open boat) I live where it can be pretty cold even during the height of sailing season...that small amount of dry protected area is nice on days like that. But....being the procrastinator I am, I also see the huge appeal of a quick/light open go faster. Life if good when you have choices.

I have always admired Grahams designs. I love the simplicity and speed. But, I am in need of something a bit different than what he offers. Let me explain. I do happen to have a happily modified Weekender right now. It is pretty nearly perfect for what I am doing... right now. Sailing the big lakes in the interior of BC. This boat kind of found me and got me back into sailing. For that I am thankful, and if I could have only this boat to live out my days, I would also be thankful. Because being on the water is absolutely the very best way to spend time.....the type of boat you have is secondary. But, having said all that, and being a person always shooting for improvement ....I would like eventually to build or to 'build up' the boat I do want to grow old with. As folks on the other forum may have noticed, I am a fan of a particular man and his boat, Charles Stock and 'Shoal Waters'. A boat very similar in function to Charles boat is what I would like to one day have. I had thought to find an older/ larger dingy and modify it as he has done...and may do that if the right hull comes along....but lately I have been having thoughts of a CS 17 modified to have a small cockpit, and small house etc. I would want it rigged a gaff cutter, as I have now and as CS Stock has....for I have found that I love this rig for the versatility, the compact spars and the ease of set up/take down. Yes, I also think the cat ketch is pretty damn groovy, but not what I am after. The CS 17 hull, though, is very cool and might make an interesting platform for such a boat. I wonder if it could be so? See 'Shoal Waters' here on an old Wooden Boat thread. http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=001697&p Yes, the Belhaven is an awesome design, a very close to what I would love to have, but it is too big for me. Cost-wise and sailing-wise. It is more boat than I need. I generally sail alone or with one person. Thanks all. Hopefully Graham will comment.

Awsome work you guys!

Now that's funny. First one of the day. Thanks.

Good One Craig.

Thanks for the link Frank. I downloaded this one because I thought the batching ability would be perfect...and it is! What a time saver. Works like a charm.

Nope.....you?

My favorite 'local' event. The Victoria Classic Boat Festival. Sept. 2,3 and 4th 2005. http://www.classicboatfestival.ca/ A link to my own images of last years event http://www.timtone.com/tt/ttphotos/VCBF04.htm

Barry: Great first time exposure to the WE. Great story. I can see why you decided to build one. I have been very pleased with my boat in the heavier conditions I have been in. When I am by myself, I am very happy to have my Linebacker along in the form of lead. Even when there are two people on the boat in gusty conditions it is nice to have the extra weight down low. I am able to carry more sail for much longer that way. Your friends sound like they had a good bit of experience with that boat. You were more fortunate than most to get a test drive before committing to the design. "Just consider, you also have to get back. But I don't know if I would consider doing it in a boat smaller than the Weekender, and I certainly wouldn't ever consider doing it alone" Right, I had considered that. But...I always have the option of parking the boat over there and going back on the ferry to get the car and trailer...if the conditions were such that I could not get back. As for going alone or not. I have always found it hard to find someone whos shedule coincides with mine. So I would almost certainly be doing such a trip alone.

Bill: Your lake sounds awesome. 40 miles with interesting stops along the way. Wicked. My lake (I allow others to use it ....lol) is 20 miles long and surrounded by high mountains on all sides. There are lots of summer homes on the south end (access by road) and the north end is pretty wild. The only commercial place to stop is a small marina...that doesn't even sell beer. I don't need to navigate in any way on this lake...lol. The wind only blows from the north or south and the lake runs due north and south. So consequently you can either tack up or down the lake or run downwind. In a way, I look at this lake as kind of a big wide river without a current. It can be pretty boring at times....but it is all I have that is close to home. I can be at the launch ramp from my back yard in 20 minutes. I have quite a few very large lakes close to me, but a minimum 2 hour drive over mountain passes. So it is a bit of a chore and I usually end up at my home lake. I am planning a cruise of a few days on Okanogan Lake this summer. This one is big enough to have charts and a cruising guide. There are several little and big towns along the way...and lots of nothing as well. Good camping and usually quite windy..oh, and really hot that time of the year too. Craig: I am moving to where you are.