Calling ALL aussies - and Kiwis?

[Andrew]

Hi all

As temporary, unofficial, self appointed, co-ordinator of no other builders in Australia :wink: I was wondering if we could start a small database of materials that we use (instead of the US naming) and a list of suppliers who we use ('cause they're great/cheap) and a list of suppliers we don't use ('cause they're a pain/expensive). This would be a great way to help any future Aussie builders - and at least put them 'on track' with some pointers so that they don't have to start hitting the yellow pages for their area and deciphering those crazy US woods.

I don't know if Wayne/Buck want to do something similar for our Kiwi cousins - or they just want a single AU/NZ list - fellas I'll let you have a think about that.

So if you want to voice your opinions and if it seems moderately possative then I'll post an e-mail address where you can start to drop the info.

Just as an aside - Frank (if your reading this) how goes it for the site (legally) if I start posting messages like 'don't use xyz shop because they don't know what a boat is!' etc.?

Thanx all

Andrew

[Frank Hagan]

Just as an aside - Frank (if your reading this) how goes it for the site (legally) if I start posting messages like 'don't use xyz shop because they don't know what a boat is!' etc.?

That type of thing is fine. I wouldn't want to see slanderous comments, personal attacks, etc., but giving an opinion on a businesses practices or expertise is OK.

Also, if you want to add the list of woods available down under to the site, I'll make a special section in the FAQ for it.

[Andrew]

Thanx Frank

I'll try to limit the slanderous comments and personal attacks to those who post on the forum :shock: Just joking fellas!!

I'll let you know just as soon as I've got something for you.

Andrew

[Guest Anonymous]

I'll happily answer any questions to do with my boat, but I think its probably a mistake to call that information "expert," or even "reliable." When it came to making decisions about materials and so forth I usually just went with what seemed right, or failing that, what was available at the time, perhaps not researching quite as much as I should have in places. For example the choice of Jarrah was made based on the fact that jettys and walkways are made from it over here so I thought, hmm must be okay in a marine environment. I've subsequently found that Jarrah has been used to build boats, so that's kind of lucky Most of the information that I have to offer that is local, and therefore not eclipsed by others on the forum, can be found on the thread "Australian Builders" by Wild Dingo.

Good Luck with it all,

Simon :)

[Frank Hagan]

I'll happily answer any questions to do with my boat' date=' but I think its probably a mistake to call that information "expert," or even "reliable." When it came to making decisions about materials and so forth I usually just went with what seemed right, or failing that, what was available at the time, perhaps not researching quite as much as I should have in places. For example the choice of Jarrah was made based on the fact that jettys and walkways are made from it over here so I thought, hmm must be okay in a marine environment. I've subsequently found that Jarrah has been used to build boats, so that's kind of lucky [/quote']

That's actually a good, logical way to approach it. Find a wood locally that is used in marine environments, or outdoors for things like stair treds, etc., and then check to see if its hard enough (Jarrah definately is!) Here in the states, we can use Southern Yellow Pine, Douglas Fir, White Oak, Poplar and even "Red Pine" or "Hard Pine" (even western white pine, but it is a little soft.)

I remember an article in Wooden Boat about a builder down there, and the types of Eucalyptus used on his boat ... fascinating to me, because my g-g-great uncle is responsible for gathering the Eucalyptus seeds that first started the groves here in California. The Blue Gum would be hard to use for boat lumber, as it twists and cups like crazy.

[Andrew]

Simon

This is exactly the information I'm looking for - the guide will mainly be for any newbies who don't know where to start! This will (hopefully) give them a little handholding for the first couple of weeks, 'till they get their feet wet.

I am in no way endorsing this list as the 'complete Stevensons boatbuilding guide to Australia' (Hmmmm, maybe a best seller in the waiting ) just a place to start from

Thanx

Andrew

[Guest dmac]

Hi Andrew,

I built my weekender a few years back using Kauri Pine for the keel, stringers and rubrails. I used Oregon for the spars but had a lot of trouble finding clear lengths and in the end had to just use the best of a bad lot. The Kauri was expensive but really nice wood to work. I got it from a woodyard in Vermont, in Melbourne, whose name escapes me right now but I'll let you know when it comes to me. I made the rudder blade from Jarrah just because.......

[Wild_Dingo]

Gidday Andrew

What a bottler of an idea mate... first though can I have a wee dig? Goodonyer! the title mate? How about a capital A for us Aussies eh? yer put a capital K for them Kiwis so...

Okay had me fun

So given this opportunity I shall venture a couple of things.

1) I will be using Tuart {Eucalyptus gomphocephala} for the keel on any boat I build this of course will need weight of the lead keel figures adjusted if it has one as Tuart is an extremely heavy timber... Tuart has been used in keel timbers deadwoods and the making of cleets and deadeyes for many years... and Ive got a front yard full of the stuff all neatly stacked and stickered! 8)

2) Cullity Timber in Mandurah... poor service in a bad location and for added inconvenience you have to enquire at the desk about every peice of wood in the place for the price... if your not a contractor or builder your looked down on... they also have a very poor choice of timber and on the extremely rare occasion that they actually have any imported or exotic timber it is priced out the other side of the black stump! :x

3) The price of good ply marine or exterior is a nightmare! ...I just added that cause its been annoying me for awhile so I needed to get it of my chest! :wink:

Take it easy

Shane

[waynemunro]

yeah, a capital K for Kiwis .. nice.

(and for our American friends, a Kiwi is a small flightless bird, the national bird of New Zealand, not the small green fuzzy fruit which is so often confused with it. Kept coming across this when I was living in the UK).

Not sure if it would be worthwhile having a seperate information set for NZ, our plywood probably comes from similar places as I don't think any is made in this country. As well as that the other 25 people in NZ that have plans for the weekender seem to be keeping a pretty low profile

and for the record (and without any regard to spelling).. the woods I am using for my little boat are:

keel: plywood - okhoume marine ply (couldn't find good timber at good price, and was impatient, if building again I would probably spend longer looking... but then maybe not, I am not a patient person when waiting to start a project)

rest of ply: meranti marine ply

stringers etc (all wood except spars): kahikatea (NZ white pine, was recommended by builder friend after talking to boat building mates), really happy with this wood, nice to work with, and seems to hold a screw like nobodys business, hasn't split at all on anything yet, even when I just clip the stringer with the screw. only failures have been when overbending a double kerfed stringer whilst not waiting for the glue to dry between the two pieces attaching to it (deck-transom join)

mast etc: North American Oregon, this was the recommended wood from the above mentioned boat building people. A little hard to get here though, really only seems to be had through recycling yards. However last weekend I did find a nice chunk of it which is now in my garage. (9 inches by 4 inches by 14 foot 10 inches, for $NZ100, seems in good condition, but I haven't cut into it yet)

screws: all stainless steel countersunk square drive woodscrews. Found a place that would sell to me at trade, think it has cost about NZ$150 for all the screws so far, and I bought a couple of hundred more than in the plans on each size. (note that I am up to the cockpit seats and just ran out of the 1 inch screws (which I bought 1500 of), so I went and got another 500 (included in the price above), I think I must be putting in more screws than the Stevensons . I would like to note that these square drive srews rock, so much easier to use that posidrive or flathead, I recommend them wholeheartedly.

Glue: Norstik 221 Gap filling epoxy (glue made in Blenheim, NZ), didn't do a lot of research into this glue, had a nervous time a couple of weeks ago when someone on the formus mentioned that gap filling epoxy is not good for making joins.. had visions of my boat falling apart as soon as it hits the first wave... however have since talked to someone that has a bit to do with this glue and he reckons it will be fine... phew... back to sleeping at night.

and I think that is about it... haven't got to paint and glass yet, and to be honest have no idea.. probably will just go out and buy the first thing I come across - going to have to get some soon to seal the inside of the seats before I close them up.

Wayne

[Andrew]

Fantastic stuff fellas

Thanx to both the Aussies and kiwis :wink:

I suppose I should post my info soon - probably later today, and then I'll get something together for Frank to add to the FAQ page.

What is it with the sandgropers? (my assumption from the reference to Mandurah), must be the same thing in the water as in the ACT, with Shane and Simon over there and me and SeaEagle over here (I'm ex WA)!!

Keep it coming

Andrew

[SeaEagle]

Andrew,

My knowledge on the matter is limited to the follow

Australian Standards published a Marine Timber for Small Boat Building in the 1970's which has since withdrawn. I have a copy and basically it is still applicable, working from memory the timbers which are available and suitable for boatbuilding are:

Douglas Fir or Oregon (good for just about everything) esp. Spars, Framing, keels, deadwod, stringers, etc

Hoop Pine = framing, planking etc

Yellow Cedar

Silver Quongdong = keel, framing, spars

White Beech

Meranti = Pacific Maple

Cedar = framing, planks etc

Black Bean

Black Butt

Brush Box

Cypress Pine

King William Pine

Jarrah = great lasting quality hardwood but very heavy (Keel only type application or limited use)

Queensland Maple

Silky Oak

Silver Ash = spars, stringers, (great for steam bending etc)

Silver Quandong = good keel, deadwood, framing = medium hardwood

Spotted Gum

Tasmanian Oak = very similar to American Maple eqiv

Personally, I've gone with Oregon / Doug Fir for Keel, stringers and Spars, and Tassie Oak and Vic or Mountain Ash for Rafters, Rubrails, toerails etc. With a bit of carefull selection I've had no problems sourcing Oregon, Ash and Tassie Oak.

[Wild_Dingo]

Gidday there again fellas

Well I happen to have a couple of scans of the old sheets titled "Australian Boatbuilding Timbers" sent me by me good mate Mike Field of Woodenboat Fittings in Victoria who I know would appreciate the need to share the information contained... it goes into what timbers are used where pertaining to wooden boats built in Aussie... so Ive hoisted an imagestation album and uploaded the sheets.

If you go to the imagestation album here http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290110547 click on the photo it will open a new page click on the photo again when it has loaded and it will enlarge it and make the page readable and also you can save and print it... but you knew that right?!!

Im goin to an auction down south on Saturday and hopefully will get some... ready for it??... Snotty Gobble!! :shock: yep never heard of it before meself but thats what theyre calling it... the only snotty gobble I ever heard of was what the hoons did as little takkers and by gar I wouldnt like to use that!! :oops: apparently its pretty good as a carving and turning timber but well we will see eh?!! 8)

Take it easy

Shane

[buck]

Hi Guys,

Thought I'd chime in here, I've been a bit silent lately, its turning to winter here in the deep south. 2 months ago I went for a 3 day cruise down the Otago Harbour in the Weekender. It was great, a long time ambition to sleep in my boat, a wonderful wee cruise. I'm all for a downunder organisation. We've got big distances here but its sometimes cheaper to get to Sydney than it is to Auckland. I've already had Aussie visitors to sail my boat. So a messabout could be on the cards.

What appealed to me about the Stevensons boats was that they built them out of ACX plywood and cheap materials. ie ones that cost virtually no money (I don't have much, having a growing familyetc)

I too used the same Norski epoxy glue (and some Gorilla glue) For the keel I used Macrocarpa a Cypress that grows like weeds around here, in boat building circles its called the 'new kauri' because it looks and behaves like it.(Kauri is a legendary boatbuilding wood) for the rest I used Pinus Radiata pine and found it very good, its cheap, versatile and once it dries out becomes quite hard and takes screws well. You can buy it tanalised (treated). I also used Radiata plywood (untreated) I have found this quite exceptional. even untreated unsealed bits I have had occasionally immersed in seawater over the years have shown no signs of delaminating. Basically its manufacture follows our regulated society's strict standards (I think we're the same as Australia in this respect) The feer our markets get the more regulation we get. Still in this case it works well. I use CD C being a good face generally with no blemishes but sometimes filled ones and one D (to use Franks words) that has moon craters) I've even found some good DD sheets with only a row of knots in one edge (you gotta look through piles) All these use marine glues.

Now I don't expect my boat to last forever (Wayne's will) But I do expect it to last 10 to 15 years or so, without too much pampering I leave it anchored for weeks at a time. and thats just what I want. Ply boats are easy to repair and that sheath of epoxy along the bottom works wonders.

Its a budget approach. I wouldn't use it on a more expensive boat but its perfect for what I want. Since the January launch I would have had over 30 sails. The polytarp sails are still holding up. The cost was $1200 NZ in the water (about $1000Aus) and $700 US. I did use 3ply Meranti for the sides as I couln't find good thin CD for the same price. I used a marine primer and standard enamel house paint.

I am pretty hard on boats, shy of rough water but I always end up in it. In my opinion the Weeknder is overcanvased in 15knots with one person in it! But its held up well and I wouldn't change the way I built it.

In fact I'm going to build a Vacationer the same way. I scored a 21' mast for $20 secondhand which desrves a boat, so I reckon about $1500 should do it on the cheap.

Merant, Jarra and Kauri are excellent materials, and I would use them given the chance, but in New Zealand and proberly Australia too there's alot of usable boatbuilding wood at your local Placemakers and Mitre10 stores.We are quite lucky really given some of the stories I' ve heard of people getting wood. Hope this helps Andrew.

[waynemunro]

I just remembered another great score that I got in the weekend. I have been going on about the boat that I am building to just about anyone that will listen and it has paid off - The uncle of the girlfriend of one of the guys at work turns out to have a 38 foot yacht , which he races. He has just replaced his Genoas as they were delaminating - he was about to burn them when he offered them to me... and I thought - worth a look. Now I don't know squat about sail materials but I figure a slightly delaminating piece of sail cloth should be just about as good as a tarp.. right ?

Anyway, they arrive and I unfold them all over the drive for a look and some quick measuring. Looks like one of them is only deminating near the top, and there is enoough material in the lower 2/3 of the sail to cut out both the main and the job for the weekender - should even be able to use the existing corners (they looked to be within about 10 degrees of the right angles.. wonder how picky I should be here).

So I guess the moral of the story is don't forget to annoy everyone that you know about your boat as you just don't know what free stuff will fall across your path. (have had offers of bubbly for the lauching too)

not really autralasia specific I guess, unless the proportion of sailors in the general population is higher down here, increasing the chance of this sort of giveaway... ?

Wayne

[Frank Hagan]

yeah' date=' a capital K for Kiwis .. nice.

(and for our American friends, a Kiwi is a small flightless bird, the national bird of New Zealand, not the small green fuzzy fruit which is so often confused with it. Kept coming across this when I was living in the UK).[/quote']

Yeah, we know. We used to have them too, but we ground them all up to make shoe polish out of them:

[waynemunro]

excellent - good that everyone thinks of boot polish when they think of New Zealand.

I am reminded of this image:

[Andrew]

Well I don't have a lot of info (I'm still haven't made the first cut!!)

Keel is Oregon from Oregon Timber Supplies in Fyshwick, OK service OK price and they gave me an extra 9' of wood that they would have had left over.

Epoxy is from AusCraft who sell the Boat-Cote range of Epoxy, Service is a little haphazzard but he is a one man band in the ACT - price is good.

Plywood from Mr Ply and Wood in woolongong - price is OK and the service was excellent (they asked me lots of questions!) - its just a little out of the way

Thats about it for now - except Cap'n Cheap has struck and I am using an unknown wood salvaged from pallets (not the pine ones) for lots of little stuff. Plenty of 1" x 3" and 2" x 3" by about 3' long - some of it is fairly ordinary, but some has a lovely 'aged' look. I'll let you know more as I spend the money.

Andrew