I must Agree with my Wife

[Scott Dunsworth]

She told me from the first breath I took while telling her I wanted to build a cruising keel boat that I was insane.

She was right, but it's to late now  . I have a good start on one that will be nice once all the effort is spent.

I grinded, fared and added two more keel lamination's today. A total of ten more hours of work and you can barely tell that I was there.

I think or believe that once the hull is turned and I start on the inside that it will become much easier to be motivated.

Sometimes I wish Graham would have told me to fly a kite when I asked him to design this boat for me. Then I set back and look at her lines and run my hand over her smooth hull and think how lucky I am that he did it for me. I'm truly thankful that he did, it's just when I look at the work ahead of me that is discouraging.

I know it will be a rare boat being a very well designed cat ketch 28 cruising design. I just have to figure out how to get through this rough bump in the road of all this fairing and sanding. Maybe I am being to picky with the way I'm trying to finish the hull, maybe not. I look at a lot of factory boats where the hull isn't perfect.

Charlie Jones gave me some great advice a while back. He told me he never paints the hull in high gloss, but then told me I could try and if I wasn't satisfied I could shoot the 2nd and third coat in a slightly flatter coat.

Maybe I should take some of my own advice that I gave Howard on his 26 and just build the thing and go sailing.  

[Howard]

Aside from the size, is the fairing process that much different than the Bellhaven?

 

I've fretted over a lot of things. Fairing has not been one of them.

[Scott Dunsworth]

Actually it's a world of deference, my Belhaven was built with long flat sheets of plywood. This thing is built with a zillion pieces of wood that have to look like they are one. The sense of accomplishment will be great in the end, IF the builder can make them look as one!, AND There lies the problem. I'm not a professional, just a back yard builder, with professional advice. I have great respect for someone that can make a seamless looking boat from plywood! But I may be in over my head on trying to make all these strips look seamless.

I have looked over Peter's Princess 28 twice and I guess I'm using his work as a standard, because it looks flawless to me. The last time I saw his work he pointed out flaws that he saw, but I couldn't, even after he showed me. I see all of mine!

A Plywood build , which is all I've ever done IS big time different. I like PLYWOOD  . I heard Peter talk about the costs of building a curvy boat and I fully understand now, where I didn't pay much attention before.

 

My hat's off to you Peter, can't wait to see her wet and under sail!!!!

 

Scott

[PAR]

Fairing is a chore, unless you've done a lot of it and have developed the little tricks and technique necessary, to get it fair in a couple of passes with the board 'o pain. Approach it methodically and deliberately. For speed it helps to have the right tools. An electric or pneumatic in line sander can be a life (and elbow) saver.

[PeterP]

Scot, don't make me blush. I'm too old to start coloring my ugly mug. Two suggestions if I may: with hind sight I would -now -consider pulling a couple of kids off the street to help me with long boarding. Easter break, couple young brutes - they can rough sand that hull in 2-3 days. You follow behind , keep an eye on them and fine tune it. Do you know how you gonna roll this thing? Thinking mattresses like I did? Get your stuff together. It took me several weeks before I scrounged up enough stuff from behind the mattress shop. How about long straps and slings? I hate to sound like a school master but I hate for you to burn out and loose heart. I've been there - believe me. Last- and I'm sorry you did not ask- It would be nice if you could've kept that Belhaven a little longer. There's nothing like a little sail once in a while to get your motivation back. Cheers PeterP

[Scott Dunsworth]

I'm not to the long boarding of the glassed hull yet, still in the rough grinding. Also fairing the glass overlaps along the length of the hull and around the stem. I guess I'm into pain because once this is completed I am going to put a thin layer of six oz plain weave over the top sides to cover very shallow divots that I'm afraid to sand out completely and chance getting into the 17 oz glass. It would also help minimize print through. Probably do the same with the bottom.

One major mistake I made was rolling on the fill coats, should have squeegeed them all on. I got plenty on but it ended up feeling like the surface of an orange, that's where the shallow divots came from. The extra thin layer of glass and epoxy will add about 80 pounds to the whole boat. I did get a 7 inch polisher, sander that is helping a lot. I think me and my right shoulder must just be a bit to much of a whiner.

 

As for turning her over plan A is with slings. Don't know exactly what I'll set her on yet, which will be a concern for me until she is glassed inside to finish the hull strength integrity. If she was glassed inside she could set on her eight foot keel and boat stands chained together. But I don't think I want those pressure points until shes glassed inside. Thought about letting her hang in the wide straps while removing a couple of frames at a time, glassing that area, then a couple more and so on. Another problem will be her beam is just shy of 10 feet and so is the height of the building, it will be close.

 

If we didn't already have a name for her I would make it JUST BECAUSE. So when another person asks why I didn't just buy a nice used boat, much cheaper and less effort, I can say just because.

[PeterP]

I am trying to picture 10ft beam boat with a half deep keel inside a 10ft ceiling shed and the feeling I get is:-No way will she flip inside. You will most likely have to drag her out flip her then get her back in. You certainly don't have enough room for a lift of any kind. Are you thinking circular cradle? Sliding my boat on PVC pipe worked really well- even sideways. All things considered she won't be that heavy. I am guessing 1000 lbs with half the frames still inside for strength. I think I left about half of mine in for the roll over. Couple of 2x6 to hold her from spreading out. Don't under estimate the strength you already have in the hull. You don't want to get too rough but I think she is strong enough to stand on her own feet with big pads( to spread the load) for support. Since you are in building trade you could "borrow" a high lift forklift from one of your jobs for the roll over. Worked for me really well. Why do you want to mess with another layer of glass? Why not just squeegee on a good coat of glass beads and fair it slick & be done with it. Certainly, no one will ever worry about the stuff below the water line. I mean, with primer, two top coats, antifouling -the boat sitting in water -who will ever know your bottom is not as slick as glass? I really worked on mine because my boat will sit on a trailer and I don't need some smart alec bad mouthing my work. The topside is where it counts -that's for sure. Cheers PeterP

[PAR]

A good way to rough in the fair, is by making a big sanding board to fit on a sander/buffer. Make an 1/8" plywood the same size as a sheet of sand paper, rounding the corners so it doesn't dig in. Glue a flush mount arbor to the back of it, then spray mount sand paper to it's face. This will knock down the high spots quickly, while bridging the lows effectively. If you dust the surface with a misting of primer first, the lows will be easy to identify. One by one, wipe the primer out with solvent and fill the lows with a fairing mix and knock these down with "whirlly gig" and you'll be close enough for long boards.

[Scott Dunsworth]

The tuss's in the building are on 8 foot centers so I think the widest section of beam will have a little more clearance in between two of the truss.

With glass the hull material weighs right at 2 pounds per square foot, there is slightly more than 500 square feet. I'm estimating that footage by what I bought and and how much was left over. So that's 1000 pounds the keel about 200, the keel batten and stem 200 and an average of 40 pounds per temporary frame 300 pounds that's a total of 1700 pounds. I am thinking a metal cradle, with sled type runners on the bottom to drag the boat out on when completed.

Peter you edge glued yours, mine is thick joints of balloons and silica. It seems pretty strong, but I' not ready to trust it completely until the inside glass is in place. So far what I have tested on cut offs is the wood always gives way not the joint.

 

Thanks for the other food for thought, Par. I bought the buffer with intention of making a sheet sander, but haven't as of yet.

[PeterP]

Scott, just a thought - you could run a tack fillet on your temporaries. That would add an incredible strength to the hull. If you glass the inside like I did - in vertical strips- then it would not be much of a problem to bust out a frame -one at a time-and grind off the fillet. 1700 lbs you say. That 10' beam makes her a whole lot chubbier than my 8' runt I guess. PeterP

[Fishman38]

"If we didn't already have a name for her I would make it JUST BECAUSE. So when another person asks why I didn't just buy a nice used boat, much cheaper and less effort, I can say just because."

 

Scott, with your permission I may borrow that name.  Already people (me for one) are asking why I am building a 20 ft boat with the nearest big lake 600 miles away, Lake Powell, and the nearest salt water with fish in it is 1000 miles away and 6500 feet downhill.  What better name than JUST BECAUSE 

 

 

 

 

[PAR]

Rolling bigger projects should be done with over kill. It's just a lot safer to hire a crane for a few hours, once you've pushed her out of the shed. A steel cradle is bullet proof, but not really necessary. It's probable wood will be cheaper and easier to build too.

[Scott Dunsworth]

The names yours, Fishman

 

Par I think I have enough steel laying around to make a wood steel unit.

 

Somewhere in that weight range. I had thought about some screws at an angle, but hadn't thought about epoxy tabbing them.

[hokeyhydro]

I always agree with my wife. There are no other options . . . :-)

[Fishman38]

A good way to rough in the fair, is by making a big sanding board to fit on a sander/buffer. Make an 1/8" plywood the same size as a sheet of sand paper, rounding the corners so it does dig in. Glue a flush mount arbor to the back of it, then spray mount sand paper to it's face. This will knock down the high spots quickly, while bridging the lows effectively. If you dust the surface with a misting of primer first, the lows will be easy to identify. One by one, wipe the primer out with solvent and fill the lows with a fairing mix and knock these down with "whirlly gig" and you'll be close enough for long boards.

PAR, I really appreciate this kind of information but sorry, I'm having trouble getting the picture here.  What do you mean by "1/8 plywood the same size as........." ?  I think you're saying cut a piece of 1/8th inch plywood the size and shape of a standard sheet of sandpaper (roughly 12" square), glue the sandpaper to this, then glue the plywood to a "flush mount arbor (disk?)" which I think would mount in the chuck of a 90 deg sander/buffer or simply screw onto it depending on the type.  I can see how this would work if  you carefully center the square plywood when gluing to the disk.  Or   if the sander/buffer is a random orbital type which probably exists but don't think I've ever seen.  I'm thinking beaucoup imbalance problems.  Or maybe you mean a 4 or 5 inch square sheet of sandpaper?  Help!  A picture would be very helpful.  Also I would think you would not  want it to dig in.    

[hokeyhydro]

I'm sure PAR is talking a 12" square. Yes, you would need to center the arbor but if it was a smidgen out of whack it will still work just fine. My "tin knocker" (auto body guy) had a rig like that and was semi-amazing. He could knock down a bondo job that looked like it had been applied by a monkey and have it primer ready before I finished my cup of coffee.

[Fishman38]

Sorry about the triple post problem.  Thanks for the clarification hydrohokey.  And the machine he's talking is a regular rotating right angle grinder? 

[PAR]

Yep, I miss typed - you don't want it to dig in. It's not hard to get it really close just by drawing an X through the corners, as most flush mount arbors have four holes. Align the arbor so the lines appear centered in each hole. Spinning this thing, even well balanced will produce some torque, so you'll want a side handle and a good grip. I have a few of them and not all are as well balanced as they could be. It's important to have a variable speed machine, though you can do rough work without it.

 

A few months ago pictures of several members here (I think it was this forum) posted their renditions of this "device". Some like to use plexi glass (I have one like this), others various weights of plywood, depending on the severity of the curves you're working. I've also seen stiff rubber used too. This one is a few layers of biax glued to a 7" rubber disk.

 

[Fishman38]

Thank you so much for the explanation PAR.  This sounds like a great solution and labor saver to what to me sounds like a major problem.  I may have to request a new tool for father's day since the only thing I have close to this is a small grinder that turns a whopping 11,000 RPM.  Way to many I'm thinking.

[PeterP]

The platten in that picture is fat 1/8" 'glass. The size is 9x11 which is the standard sheet size. It is not glued to the rubber disc. However, the rubber disc is left in place as a spacer. There is a somewhat better description on my 28' tread as well as Scott's 28. To give credit where credit is due -the original comes from Gougeon Bros. Par is right when he recommends a good grip and a sturdy handle. Low speed is preferable as it is less likely to melt epoxy as well as being easier to handle. Out of balance vibration due to the rectangular shape is not an issue at low speeds. While this is not a piece of gear for re-finishing fine furniture it will do surprisingly smooth job. The rectangular shape combined with constant random movement (it is nearly impossible to hold this thing still) produces almost random orbit sander results. PeterP