Sorry just one more question on center or third mast sailing

[sitearch]

All,

I am sorry but I just have to ask one more question sailing with the mast in the center step or third step on my CS( you can see my topic a few topics below to which I had so many helpful comments). Let's say I wanted to change the rigging and use the main in the center step almost all of the time. Could I use rig up a small jib (maybe with a club foot) from the mast to a bowsprit or maybe even with a furler? I guess I would be changing the rigging to a kind of sloop rigging similar to the Vacationer. Wes will know what I am talking about since he has built and sailed a vacationer (pocket cruiser) I believe. I even thought about adding a fold in the mast to ease set up.

I am taking a risk that Ray will totally tear my head off here but I am willing to risk it.

Bob

CS #199 First Attempt

Alaska

[cprinos]

I don't think you'd be able to get an effective jib shape because the unstayed bendy mast won't keep tension on the jib stay. I think you'd have to start thinking about some kind of running backstay or maybe swept-back spreaders to support a head sail.

[sitearch]

I see what you mean. I was thinking something like this (see attached photo). If I added some light stays to port and starboard like the picture attached it might work huh?

Bob

CS #199 First Attempt

Alaska

[sitearch]

What do you think, Docpal?

[Gordy Hill]

The boat is nicely balanced with the main in the center hole. Adding a jib forward of it could give you a hellacious lee helm. (bad!)

Go ahead and sail it with just the main. With a nice breeze it's a real joy. Instead of listing she just accelerates. Way too much fun! You just steer and the sail pretty much takes care of itself.

Maybe it would be a good idea to borrow a sloop and remind yourself how much fun it is to have shrouds and stays to set up and jib sheets to tend.

[Docpal]

Never having sailed a 17 with anything other than the full rig I can't really chime in on the mast position question, but now I DO see how you accomplished the sheeting setup with your cabin from the latest picture you've posted (angled bulkhead, etc.). I'm going to try something a little different and Graham and I have discussed some options which I am in the midst of laying out. Thanks for the picture!

[Gordy Hill]

Opps! I just reread my post. Didn't mean to be so rude! Sorry.

[sitearch]

Not at all Gordy, that is what I need the most. I will try it.

Good luck Docpal.

I appreciate all the great advice. This weekend looks like it will be a good one.

Happy sailing all.

Bob

[sitearch]

Oh, I forgot that I promised a sketch of what I am planning or what First Attempt would look like with just the main....I did add the non overlapping self tending jib...sorry about that Gordy. I will drop that off. Oh and I also forgot to say that part of what is driving this is the fact that I have a cuddy--which I love here in Alaska.

Excuse the drawing, after all I am only an architect....

Bob

[wkisting]

Yep, the two issues I see (as others mentioned) are: (1) you'd need to add stays to prevent the flexy mast from distorting the jib shape, which would then complicate some of the rig's simplicity of operation, and (2) the third mast step position was designed for optimal balance with a single sail already, so the jib would likely throw that balance off again.

Not to push you back to the ketch plan too vigorously, but I really do think there must be a solution to your original issue with reefing the main that would make that process feel more manageable to you so you could keep the original ketch plan, instead of switching the rig to a single sail and jib as you're proposing. I'm totally sold on the ketch plan, even though it took me awhile to fully understand how to reef the main successfully in moderate to heavy winds. I keep thinking some kind of jiffy reefing setup would be a better solution for you, but then again, I don't know your sailing conditions firsthand, so take my input with a grain of salt in that regard.

[sitearch]

I think you are ultimately right Wes. I am going to try using the main in the center step without the jib. I have looked at the center of effort with the jib and without. Where Graham placed the center step is about 10" lead of the center of lateral resistance which is just perfect. I may increase the size of the main which according to my scribbles could be 120 sf. as long as I line up the new main with the centers of lateral resistance where Graham designed it. It should be very balanced. So I think you are right--problem solved without shrouds, stays or a jib.

Thanks for the comments.

Bob

[sitearch]

By the way Wes how was the vacationer -pocket cruiser you built?

[brigait1]

Another thing to consider is that adding shrouds to a mast will add A LOT of compression stress to the mast and step. Without beefing things up considerably I don't think you would be able to get anywhere near enough shroud tension to accomplish what you want, and you would be dramatically increasing the likelihood of a mast failure.

[wkisting]

By the way Wes how was the vacationer -pocket cruiser you built?

It was the Pocket Cruiser model (the 14 footer), not the larger Vacationer. For the most part, we loved it because we built it together and sailed it for our honeymoon, which was very charming. I decked out the cabin with a memory foam liner, neat little shelves, a hand-pump faucet, flourescent lights, and an oscillating fan so that Anna wouldn't feel like we were "roughing it" during the trip down the Mississippi. It was very comfortable to sleep in. But we eventually grew to dislike the flat bottom, as slapping waves would wake us unless we found a perfectly tranquil cove for the night. We also disliked the cabin after our honeymoon because it left no space in the cockpit for two people to stretch out and it blocked our view. Aside from the honeymoon trip, 98% of our time was spent in that cockpit, which felt too small and cramped. And the gaff rig, though fairly effective, just felt a little too complex to handle at times (again, partly because it was such a big sail and the cabin was somewhat in the way when going forward to bend the sail on or off the mast. The boom could be downright dangerous when it swept across the cockpit. All those little gripes didn't prevent us from loving it while we had it, but when we moved to Georgia, we sold the boat to help us afford the cost of the move. Then we set to building the CS20, which had a more refined design in all of the ways I've mentioned... a vee-entry hull for less wave slap, no cabin, a luxuriously large cockpit, sprits instead of the skull-cracking boom, two smaller sails instead of one large gaff rig, etc. We've been so happy with our CoreSound 20 that we've never really looked back. Once in a blue moon I miss that charming little cabin. And now that we have a little girl, I sometimes imagine what an awesome play-house that little Pocket Cruiser would have made for her.

[sitearch]

Thanks Wes. Good stuff. I too love my CS. Perhaps the reason I want to sail with the main in the optional step is because I have a cabin. I spend a lot of time in my cockpit and your are right it is just right in size. It will be nice to get the mizzen out of the space as well and move it forward to the center step. My daughter loves to ride foreward of the cabin and taking the main aft will free up that space for her. We often fish from that location and not having the main there will be nice as well. Perhaps we are using our boat in an unortodox method but we love our little cruiser and neither of us are racers...so it is just fine for us to reach about 7 knots in a fair breeze.

By the way It might be comforting to all who have checked out this topic to know I have run the numbers concerning the CE and the center of lateral resistance. Eventually as Graham designed the center step I can increase the main sail to an area of 80 and still have the center of effort leading by 10". This will all be done without a jib, shrouds or stays of any kind. I will give a report on how it went by next week. We are going out this weekend.

I look forward to be able to jump up and reef quickly from the cockpit when a big blow kicks up and yet be able to tack without any effort.

Thanks agian for the info. I saw your picture on the weekender web site the other day and thought your history was pretty neat.

Happy sailing.

Bob

CS #199 First Attempt

Alaska

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Not having raead all the replies... I can say that Graham has drawn a sloop rig tentatively for the CS series which I saw at one time.

He might be able to provide rigging details for a sloop if that is what you want.

[sitearch]

Thanks Ray. I will check it out. Lately, Graham has been so busy he hasn't been able to respond to my latest posts. I hate to bother him with my constant tweaking of his wonderful design. But I am having fun. Thanks for your note.

Bob

Alaska

[Ray Frechette Jr]

And you note I didn't tear your head off....

Tim Diebert had inquired about a gaff rig sloop for the CoreSound hull.

Graham had said there is no reason why not to if the Gaff rig makes your heart go Pitter Patter.

Personally I am very very sold on the unstayed cat ketch with sprit booms myself.

[sitearch]

Thanks Ray. Thanks for not tearing my head off, but I assume that you don't have a cuddy on your CS. That would make it a lot easier to handle reefing the main I think. I am not really in love with the sloop rig. I just think it would be a little easier to handle solo especially wihout a forsail...at least that is what I have experienced over that last three years with my CS.

Graham is not responding to my emails, too busy I think or just put out with my insane questions but I have added a copy of my note to him yesterday. I hope I didn't quote you incorrectly in any way. Please excuse me if I did.

Thanks for any and all comments and advice. I am by no means an experience sailor...yet but I am striving to be and your help is invaluable.

My note to Graham is below.

regards,

Bob

Hi Graham,

Hope you are well and that your project is going well.

I am writing in response to a suggestion from Ray who told me that you have (and he has seen) a sloop rig design for a CS20. I would be fascinated in looking at the requirements for a sloop rig for several reasons. I have a CS20 that I added a cuddy to and you will remember it as you labeled her--an interesting boat a few years ago. I love my little boat and she is fast but my cuddy (which I also love) has complicated my ability to quickly reef my main while sailing solo. I have been in some pretty big blows lately and barely escaped real trouble by dropping the main altogether, but that has really caused me to go through a rodeo trying to collect the sail etc while the seas get very rough very fast. Additionally, I wouldn't mind the opportunity to unclutter the cockpit a bit.

I truly love the classic ketch rig. I have admired it on such cruisers as the Nauticat for years, which are true classics and desirable on real cruisers say in the 30 to 40 foot range so that it could handle any weather on across the globe adventures. But I go out alone quite a bit and I have grown to dislike having to rig up both mast each time I go out. That is why I have asked you about making a tabernacles for both of my masts.

This advice from Ray to ask about a sloop rig came from a discussion in the messingabout forum I am having about my plan to use the center step you already designed for the CS by using the Main mast only. As I mentioned I am having a real gymnastic activity trying to reduce sail when a big blow comes quickly. And I have all of the control lines running from the main to the cockpit but to be honest it still is quite a trick to reduce sail.

Actually, this is all really interesting to me especially in light of Ray's comments because I have crunched some of the numbers on the center step as you designed it in the CS and it appears that if I use the main sail in that step I will still have a perfectly balanced sail plan--with the center of effort leading the center of lateral resistance by at least 10 to 12" or 5% of the length of the boat. The only real negative I can see is that she will be under sailed which is the purpose of the step in the first place. But it looks like from my calculations that I could increase the area of the main sail stepped in the center step up to 90 square feet and still have the center of effort around 10 to 12 inches leading the center of lateral resistance. I wouldn't even have to increase the height of the mast and I would still have the benefit of using a simple sprit instead of a heavy dangerous boom. It is good all around to me and I still don't need shrouds, stays or a jib to mess with.

Anyway, sorry for all the narrative, but since Ray mentioned the sloop rigging plan for the CS I thought I would I ask you to share with me your design on how to modify my CS for a sloop rig. As always I know you have little or no time for this, but I would appreciate it. I will post a picture on the forum.

Best regards,

Bob

CS#199

[Ray Frechette Jr]

Give Graham a call at night . Generally I will send him an email with my question a few days before I call him. That way he can think it over a few days in advance of answering me.

Tuesday and Thursday nights he has boat building classes once fall hits..