Lapwing or CS 15 for around Florida race

[Doug Cameron]

This is really a question for Graham, but I would like to hear opinions from all of you (especially Tom)

I am wrestling with participating in the WaterTribe around Florida Race.  It only occurs every 5 years, so I will probably be too old when it comes around again (I do hope to do Everglades Challenges until I am 75 or 80, but that's a "short" cruise if you go in cruise mode.).  I plan to do it in cruising mode rather than attempt to win.  I am considering a small sailboat (Enigma did well last time) or a Kruger canoe with a Balog batwing sailing rig.  Either way, I would build a tent/ mosquito net enclosure for sleeping aboard when necessary.  Whatever becomes of the current debate among the LLC members of WaterTribe about the portage rule, I would like to use the same boat throughout.  I just think it is more in line with the unsupported philosophy of WaterTrive Challenges.

I like the way the Core Sound 20 sails, and I have appreciated the cat ketch features of both the Sea Pearl and the Core Sound.  The 20 is too much to solo row up the St. Marys and down the Suwannee, and it would be impossible to portage.  I like the way my Shellback (11'+) rows, but I would need a little more room for the journey.  I am sure that I could construct a sling-and-oar (or mast) arrangement to carry a 15 foot boat with bicycle wheels.

So, what do you think?

[Ken_Potts]

   I haven't sailed either boat or been in a watertribe event so as far as I'm concerned I'm an expert  ;D  My vote is for the CS15.

   Graham can probably give you better advice than I can.

[Tom Lathrop]

Graham should be better able to give an opinion on this but that never stopped us before.  Lapwing might be a bit easier to row with less wetted surface.  All is a guess.  CS is definitely easier to build.

[Guest LeeH]

Wouldn't the CS 15 and the Lapwing both be too heavy and wide for the portage?

[paul_stewart]

Doug,

Here is the altitude data for the UFC portage...

(Guess where the cellphone tower is.)

--Paul

[Designer]

Hi Doug,

That is an interesting question. Like you I think that the same boat should go all of the way around.

While I like the Lapwing a lot, but I think that a slimmer and lightened Bay River Skiff might be your best bet. A modified BRS would be a lot quicker to build and be at least as good a rower as the Lapwing. The addition of side decks to the BRS would make it more seaworthy.

There is a lot of design contradiction in this race. Like trading some sail carrying power for improved rowing. The BRS has a little more stability than the Lapwing so we could slim the hull down some to improve the rowing and that would allow us to build it lighter which is real important for the portage.

[ecgossett]

Doug,

I live in St. Marys and with a 1976 C&C 25' had no problem sailing up and down the St. Marys. My Hobie 16 made it under the I-95 bridge and it would not be hard to sail further up. If your worried about rowing don't bother, at entry points the currents from a ebb tide can be very very strong, especially if the wind is out of the west at all... Plan on sailing or rowing with the tide.

St. Marys also has a good public dock that is free to tie up at, the yacht club runs the bait shop next to the dock so getting rides/showers if needed are not a problem.

V/R Edward

[Apteryx]

Isn't there a second short portage on the river, along with a rapids to shoot?

I think the only sailboat to complete the Ultimate Challenge is Matt Layden's Enigma.  I can only guess what motorists thought seeing him towing a sailboat by shoulder harness on that 40 mile stretch.  Not something you see every day.

[Designer]

Edward,

We are not talking about the easy lower stretch of the St Marys. Here is a comment by Sharkchow the eventual winner of the Ultimate Florida Challenge.

The upper St. Marys was one of the toughest parts of the race. I kept wondering why no one ever talks about how hard the upper St. Marys is. I just assumed it was because the portage is even harder. You paddle against the current, there are plenty of downed trees and branches, and the river twists back and forth-- five million miles to go five. Do not, do not, do not consult your GPS. This will break your spirit. At this point in the race I was behind Wizard and Manitou and I kept thinking, how did Wizard get through this. What he described is not -- can not be -- what he did. He is too modest. I will tell you right now Wizard is superhuman to have gotten his boat up through some of those snags. It is possible because he did it. But when he suggests taking a saw to cut through -- that is good advice if your boat will be larger than a Kruger. Hell, you might need a chainsaw.

[Tom Lathrop]

That last note shows the ignorance we face when making suggestions of a proper boat for this event.  Matt's 8' Sand Flea may be close to the limit in size and weight if the description of the St Mary's and portages are good examples of the difficulties faced.  Maybe this event is the reason Matt used his Sand Flea in the EC 300.

[paul_stewart]

Doug,

And we can't forget that there are a few rapids, usually portaged, on the upper Suwannee River.  That portage route is narrow and steep.  Kayaks sometimes run the rapids rather than taking the portage route.

In a previous year during a WaterTribe "Cross-Floriday Challenge" there was no water in the upper St. Mary's and the kayaks/krugers had to be dragged over rocks in the streambed for many miles.  I believe ManitouCruiser or Chief could tell you the correct facts first-hand.

--Paul

[Designer]

Tom,

Matt used Enigma for the UFC.

[Doug Cameron]

Paul - The Suwannee is doable at most levels (Big Shoals is not as big as they say for a boy who paddles in the Appalachians).  I would carry (short, steep) or line at lower levels and run it at higher levels.  Above and below that, it can easily be run with oars (Porky and Sir Zap did the Suwannee Challenge in 2003 in a tandem rowboat.).  As to your graph, the Y axis doesn't bother me since it's scale would seem trivial here in the mountains.  The portage will be a grunt, but doable if I can get through the St. Marys above Traders Hill.

The Enigma had an axle sticking out of the chine wings, and Matt mounted what looked like baby carriage tires on it.  I would build a break-apart version of the LL Bean cart (300 lb capacity) using mtn bike tires.  I would avoid the early evenings because it is busy and dark.  Time to get a meal and get some sleep.  I would walk late at night and during the day with one of the new generation of reflective vests and put a flasher on the inside transom on the inside.

Thanks for all of the input.  Keep thinking.

[paul_stewart]

Doug,

If you did go class4, say modified BRS, if you were a crew of two some of the difficulties of portaging / dragging / etc.  might be ameliorated;  don't you think so?  Where's GreyBeard when you need him?   The long portage could look like this: 2 wheels midship,  1 wheel under the rudder for steering,  you in the boat steering with the tiller,  GreyBeard towing the boat up the road.  

--Paul

[Tom Lathrop]

Tom,

Matt used Enigma for the UFC.

Doesn't matter, I'm still ignorant about that race so making a wrong assumpton about the boat makes no difference.

[Doug Cameron]

The Ulitmate Florida Challenge is an extension of the Everglades Challenge, and the EC is the first leg of the Ultimate Florida.  It goes up the civilized east coast of Florida after leaving Key Largo, and thence up the St Marys River (the N border of Florida).  Up to Traders Hill, the river is wide and tidal,  The portion on to St. George gets narrow and twisty.  Then you take out for a 40 mile portage over narrow rural roads to Fargo Georgia and the Suwannee.  The upper Suwannee is pretty and tea-colored with beautiful white sand beaches for camping.  The first few miles below Fargo twists among large cypress trees.

There are two rapids or any significance, Big Shoals and Little Shoals above White Springs.  They are the biggest rapids in Florida (like being the tallest pygmy, though Big Shoals does have some sharp rocks).  Below Suwannee River State Park, the river widens and is bordered by houses and docks for the almost 200 miles on to the Gulf.  When it reaches the Gulf, the race goes down the coast and back to the Ft. DeSoto start.

Some of us have been advocating using one boat for the whole thing. like they did the last time.  The curent rule under discussion allows the crew to switch from a sailboat to a canoe or kayak at Traders Hill and turn it in at Suwannee River State Park.  Another suggested variation is that another craft (inflatable?)( be carried on the boat.  A meeting at Cedar Key in May should clear this up.

Another race of interest to readers of this forum is the Carolina Challenge, which starts on Cedar Island and goes to Beaufort and back, using the canal one way.  It will be the last weekend in September.  Details should be posted on the watertribe.com site in the next day or so.