Newbie questions

[Joel B]

This is a great forum

I have been studying designs several months and reading your forum for a couple of weeks and most of my questions have been asked and answered.

I am thinking seriously about building the Core Sound 20. In a past life I was a journeyman aircraft composite toolbuilder and engineer.  We borrowed many of our techniques and terminology from boat building.  I am confident about my ability to build the boat but I don't know anything about sailing.  Am I underestimating what it will take to learn to sail the boat after I build it?  I am currently in the costing phase and I am developing a spreadsheet to present the project to the boss of the family for approval.  Has anyone else developed a spreadsheet that I could look at?  Do any of you know of someone in the Utah area that has built a Core Sound design?

Thanks

Joel

[Tom Lathrop]

Welcome to the forum Joel. 

Sailing is not difficult but no one ever learns it all.  Some people have a natural knack and some have concrete arms. Fortunately there are very few of the latter. 

Having a spread sheet of the costs before you may satisfy a wish for detail understanding but will not affect the real cost one bit.  It will help you organize, as will a simple list of materials and costs, which I guess, in the new language, is a spreadsheet.  Your main costs are plywood, epoxy and sails/masts.  Everything else can be bought in dribbles but these are big single purchases and plywood and epoxy come up front.

[Joel B]

Thanks for the advise. I will take it to heart. I have priced the plywood, epoxy and glass which will get me started.  I have yet to buy the plans and my questions about the materials will probably be answered there.

We went to San Carlos Mexico a few months ago and I rented a hobie cat for the day. Funnest day I've ever had. That's where I got the bug to try this for real.  I will be doing most of my sailing on the high altitude lakes in Utah (4300 - 7000 Feet).  Is there anything I have to consider with altitude?

Thanks

Joel

[tom151]

I am confident about my ability to build the boat but I don't know anything about sailing.  Am I underestimating what it will take to learn to sail the boat after I build it? 

Joel

It's seldom the 'learning to sail' that's the difficulty -- but more likely it will be how well sailing  fits into the family (with the related time and cost pressures, the issues of trailering, the lifestyle changes over time).

An alternate strategy for these hard economic times is to take advantage of the numbers of distress sales available and pick up a smallish (16' / 18') centerboarder with all the required sails and gear for a few hundred dollars. Hobie cats can be had for a few hundred these days.

My 2cents

[Joel B]

I have thought seriously about your suggestion and buying something now would put me on the water sooner. But part of the draw for me is the romance of building the boat myself.  In my younger days I was an aircraft toolbuilder/lofter/modeler and I miss that part. But  your suggestion is valid and I may yet do that.

Thanks for your input

Joel

[Apteryx]

With experience in building precision fit wood and fiberglass parts, I bet you would find the boat building fun.  However, you will also find your taste in boats shifting after you sail some.  I find it hard how one would not have fun on a Core Sound 20 (or just about any small boat) but you may learn more of what is to your taste.

I'm building a Core Sound 17 because I've found catboats to be great exploration boats, which is what I like to do - poke around, get into places I haven't been before, all without tiring myself out working the boat.

The Core Sound should be more of the same except much faster.  I'm hoping with a pop-up dodger/tent I can effectively camp cruise.

I expect (ducking, to avoid any hurled veggies) not to point as high as I would in a sloop and maybe not as high as my catboats.  All boats sail faster footed off a bit, so I'm not terribly concerned about a few degrees one way or the other.  From all accounts it's hard to keep up with Sea Pearls as they tack through 100 degrees or more.

The cat ketch rig should be really nice to sail, since I'll be able to balance the helm (change whether it wants to turn up into the wind or off of it) by changing the trim of the sails.  Setting the mizzen should park the boat in irons giving me all the time in the world to set the main.

Sea Pearls have had my eye for a long time, but I really want to give sprit booms a try.  They jibe so nicely!

[Joel B]

I was drawn to the core sound because it looks like a good work boat.  I like to fish and set crawdad traps.  I have a 17' pontoon which is a great fishing platform but when I see the sails go by I wish I was on one.  Also when gas went to 4$ last year that put a krimp in the fishing. Most of all I really don't like the motor. Most of the sailing will be on the lakes in Utah (I'm about 10 minutes from Utah Lake) with maybe a once a year down to the Sea of Cortez coastal waters.

I really have no idea what the  difference is between a sprit boom and another set up.  but by all accounts the cat ketch is easy to handle. Why does it point higher than the core sound?  I went and looked at the Sea Pearl after your post but I didn't see a design for the build it yourself people.

[Tom Lathrop]

There seems to be some confusion about these boats.  The Core Sound boats are all cat-ketches.  As is the Sea Pearl.  None are catboats or sloops.  A Sea Pearl has lower wetted surface relative to sail area than the Core Sounds and is a double-ender.  It is somewhat faster than the Core Sound ketches in light wind because of these attributes.  As the wind pipes up the Core Sound boats come to life and, even the smaller ones can show their transoms to the Sea Pearl.  The tender hull and double ends of a Sea Pearl work against it in more wind.  It is limited to displacement speed and gets cranky when pressed beyond that, especially off wind where it must be reefed to retain decent control.  The more powerful hulled Core Sound boats, instead of getting cranky, just lift their skirts and sail away, planing well beyond any speed attainable by the Sea Pearl.  This is true of the CS boats from the 20 down to the 15 footer and I include the Bay River Skiff as being able to easily defeat a Sea Pearl in better wind. 

These are not conjectures but observations from watching both kinds of boats sailing in races and sailing most of them myself.  Even the Spindrift 10 can do this in it's best winds.  That again is based on observation of both boats in races.  In my opinion, there are no normal conditions where a double ender is superior to a wider transom stern simply because it is a pointed stern.  The better light wind speed of the Sea Pearl is due to low wetted surface and its pointed stern produces, in my opinion,  only negative results.  I exclude running the Columbia Bar and doubt any here will ever attempt that in conditions where the pointed stern would be superior.  The double ender benefits from the widespread urban legend which surrounds it, nothing more.

There, I said it and I'm glad.

[Tom Lathrop]

Hi Ray,

I don't really dislike pointy sterns or double-enders or what ever they may be called, although I do prefer the look of a well executed transom stern.  I do quale at the unwarranted devotion some offer to them.  They are not inherently bad or good and are a reasonable choice for someone who likes the flavor, unless they are used in situations where the poor characteristics come out.  The splitting of following seas is, I think mostly a myth.  Perhaps under a heavy stern drogue and running very slow, that can be a factor.  The pooping thing is mostly a myth since the pointed stern, with its low buoyancy is far more likely to be pooped than a transom overhang with lots of buoyancy to pick the stern up and send the boat on its way.  I hope I'm never out in waves capable of pitchpoling my boat so that extreme does not come into play.

Nevertheless, none of the round the world boats are double enders.  The first of these races was won by a double ender, "My Lively lady" driven by Sir Alec Rose (unless my memory is bad, which it is).  He was actually the slowest boat but won because all the other skippers, broke down, decided to go around again instead of finishing, or committed suicide.  A really great set of books, by the way.  The first is "The Strange Voyage Of Donald Crowhurst" and the second and perhaps better book is the recent "A Voyage For Madmen".

In a displacement keelboat, the stern must either be "pointed" in the underwater shape or fair to the surface or it will be a dog.  The above water shape can either  offer nothing in on-deck room or add stability as in a double-ender or a lot of both with a transom stern. 

Next, maybe I'll take on dories and flat bottom boats and become more known for  weird opinions. 

No animals were harmed in the formulation of the above opinions.

[Apteryx]

I was at risk for finding a Sea Pearl, and they are lovely boats, but what attracted me to building the Core Sound was an unexercised genetic pull towards woodworking and some perceived facts about the two designs.

Having only seen a Sea Pearl in the water once, my opinions may be naive, but I've studied them from afar, so to speek.

In light air they are great boats.  I have an mpeg movie in my Ipod of a Sea Pearl probably making 3 knots on glass-smooth water.  The wind was being lifted off the water's surface by surrounding terrain, making conditions look calmer than they actually were - but it was still quite calm.

As the wind pipes up, they exhibit initial tenderness.  The water ballast Sea Pearls are probably somewhat stiffer but still have an initial yearning to lean over.  I prefer form stability over ballast, to the degree light weight is a good compromise.

My observations of Graham Byrnes Core Sound and related boats is that they will stand on their feet in a lot of wind.  I'll give up light air performance with a big grin for the chance to sail in heavy conditions.  For power in light air I'll fly a mizzen stays'l on appropriate points of sail.

In the Texas 200 the first day was reportedly pretty heavy - 28 knots measured, as I recall.  The Core Sound 20, from what I hear, reefed, but Graham and the CS17 in the event just powered along under full sail.

I'm going to be happy if I see 7 knots in 15 knot winds.  Lightly loaded, kind of simulating 15 knot wind pushing a 400 pound planing hull on a beam reach, I believe eight or nine is going to be possible, maybe 10.

We'll see.  ;D

[Terry Dunn]

Hi Joel,

If you ever get to the Denver area you are welcome to come by and look at the Core Sound 20 that reefed the first day in the Texas 200. There are lots of pictures of my CS 20, Tim's CS 17, Graham's EC 22 and Travis's Princess 22 along with all of the other pretty boats on the texas200.com web site.

Brian and I pulled off and put two reefs in the main and mizzen when we entered the land cut the first day of the t200. We clocked 9.8 mph AFTER we put the reefs in.  There may have been a current in our favor as well. I often wonder what speed we would have hit had we not reefed that first day. I also wonder if we would have managed to stay upright. We reefed quite a bit during the event. Tim and Pete had their staysail up for a bit during the first day and were catching Brian and I for a while. It got a bit hairy for them and they took it down.

If you do decide to build a Core Sound I recommend sail tracks and reef points. I started with sleeved sails. I could get set up a lot faster with the sleeved sails  but it is nice to be able to reduce sail when the wind comes up. I converted to sail track and converted my sleeved sails as well. If you build a 20 the tabernacle for the main mast is probably a good idea as well. I enjoyed building my CS 20. I am not a craftsman so my boat is a bit rough around the edges. But it floats and works well.

[Joel B]

Terry

Great offer and as a matter of fact I will be at Colorado State this week for a conference Wed-Friday.  I could sneak down to Denver for sure.  Would that work for you?

My e-mail is bradfojo@uvu.edu

Thanks

Joel

[Ken_Potts]

  Joel,

  You're correct - Sea Pearls aren't homebuilts.

  I've sailed Sea Pearls in varied conditions and my CS17 in even more varied conditions.  They're both fun boats and I'd be happy to own either.  I've been out in heavier weather in my CS17 than I would be happy about facing in a Sea Pearl (probably because I have more time in sailing the CS).  I'd bet on my CS17 over a Sea Pearl 21 in most any race - Having said that, if you find a Sea Pearl forum you'll probably hear that the CS boats are always trying to keep up (I'm probably a bit biased)

  I find that I can't point as high as some boats but I also find that if I don't point as high as the boat will go I'll still get to windward faster than many other boats.  They may be able to point better but I'll still get there first.

  I've used my CS17 for daysails, three-day trips, fishing a local lake, putting around with a little outboard, etc.  I'm often tempted to liken my boat to a Jeep but when the wind kicks up she's more like a Porsche.  The design is so versatile I've had a hard time deciding what to build next (and I really need another project).

  If you sail in cold water or cold weather you should know that you're going to get some spray on board when the wind blows.  That's kind of inevitable for that speed, though.  If you're sailing mountain lakes with the chaotic winds they seem to have, a CS will treat you well.  They are easy to rig, easy to handle, and the more you sail them the more you'll be able to get just a little extra bit of speed out of them (I guess I'm trying to say that even though the boat is easy to handle, you probably won't get bored).

  Here's one more disclaimer - Probably 90% of my sailing time has been in my CS17 - Anyone with experience in fast sloops (Lightnings?) as well as CS boats should feel free to correct me on the subject of getting to windward if I've got it wrong.

[Joel B]

Ken

Thanks for your insight.  The more I look the more I am becoming convinced of the CS design.  I took up riding a motorcycle a few years ago and I had no experience.  I was going to get a 750 (it seemed huge to me) but an experienced friend convinced me to bump it up to an 1100 and now I wish I would have gone even bigger.  I have the same type of question between building the 17 and the 20.  The 17 looks adequate for what I want to do but I don't want to put all that time and money into a build and wish I would have gone with the 20.  Any advise on the matter?

Joel

[PAR]

The 17 is a boat that is easily handled by one person, the 20 starts to stretch what a single person can comfortably do. The issues come up at launch and recovery on the loading ramp. A small boat should be within the ability of a single person to "manhandle" when necessary.

This isn't to say you couldn't handle a 20, but most find this to be more boat then they want to handle solo.

Even if you intend to take crew all the time, do you really want your wife's fingers between the rub rail and the dock, trying to wrestle a fairly hefty boat, caught in a contrary current with a head wind, both screwing with your attempts to get it on the trailer straight?

[Dale Niemann]

Joel,

Back to one of your original questions. 

When I moved to FL in 1970 I had never sailed a boat and knew nothing about sailing.  I bought a styrofoam Snark (10 or 12 feet, I think) and went to the library and got just about all the books they had on learning how to sail.  Basically, I spent a lot of time in the water but learned what it takes to keep a sailboat upright and how to make it sail up wind as well as down wind.

The CS boats should be good boats in which to learn to sail.

Your library may not have the selection of sailing books that we have here in FL near the water but there are numerous basic sailing books that you can buy on Amazon.

I have sailed sloops and cats, etc.  My "Lively" CS17 is the best monohull I have ever sailed.  I love her.  We have sailed in winds up to 25 single handed and felt comfortable because of appropriate reefing.  I also launched "Lively" with sleeve sails and quickly decided that was a mistake.  I had the sails converted to track configuration with two reefs and have been completely happy ever since.

You should have no trouble building the CS boats based on your experience.

I would suggest you think about how many people you will usually be sailing with in order to help you determine what size boat to build.  My CS17 sails very well from singlehanded up to max of 4 people.  Two people are best in my opinion. 

Dale

[Apteryx]

Just to clarify - reefing is a FINE thing to do.  I'm all for it.  Kudos for reefing when the wind roared, you might well have gone slower without reefing.