When using 5200...

[Bill]

Reading about people routing, sanding, filling etc..on the bulkheads has me wondering... If a person decides to do all these things and then epoxy, prime, paint or whatever on the inside of his/her boat BEFORE assemblage or going 3-D, what should be done about the areas that will be filleted or 5200 would be used? Is it ok to apply the 5200 over paint and or primer etc? My thinking is that if you sealed up plywood with any of these items, then assembled the parts your bond would not be 5200 to wood, it would be 5200 to paint etc. If you assemble THEN use 5200, THEN use paint/epoxy etc. you wouldn't have epoxy/paint etc. inside any joint, just wood to wood with 5200 covering. I imagine there are a few ways to do all this but it does seem that one way would work out better than another for a long lasting water tight joint. I realize one could paint 90% of the inside, leaving the edges taped, then paint /5200 the taped areas after assembly but is that the way to go? Just a thought...I'm wanting to save needless work and still have a good looking interior, but I'd like to maintain good integrety of the hull interior and exterior first and formost.

Thanks for ideas and any input...

Bill

[Arnie Eaton]

Bill, I think you should not finish any wood surfaces until assembled. ALL joints should be glued with a good glue or epoxy (used as glue). Most people forgo the 5200. Some used 4200 as a bedding for portlights, cleats and other items that may need removing. Now if you must finish the panels and wood parts, leave the area that needs glue free of any finish. Tape off the glue area or you won't get a good bond. A good tight wood joint with proper glue will not leak. If you fibreglass and epoxy the outside hull and do a good job, no leaks.

[Russ Sylvester]

Excellent reply! I am now convinced that the 5200 along the inside seams doesn't do a thing except make a huge mess and waste some money. If the boats construction integrity is to the point where 5200 on the INSIDE of the boat is going to make a difference then you've got much bigger problems. Water that has made it into the boat that far is going to do a bunch of damage real quick and even copious amounts of 5200 isn't going to save the boat.

I finished out (filleted and painted) the closed in areas as much as possible before putting on the second side panels. This way the amount of contorting into un-natural positions is kept to a minimum.

[tdrown]

Today I made about 20 calls calling around for 1x4"x8' spruce and 3M 5200 Polyurethane Sealand, no luck for either, I will probably have to use white pine for panel jointers and use the DAP Plastic Resin Glue that should arive at the store tomorrow for the hull assembly. I think I might finish or prime some of the boat after I go 3d sometime next week hopefully.

Tyler S. Drown

[Barry Pyeatt]

Tyler,

If you can find it, use Southern Yellow pine instead of white pine. The White Pine is too soft to hold well and if it gets wet, it gets mushy. Or see if you can find some mahagony, it might be a little more expensive, but it will hold a screw and adhesieve a lot better. You might try a lumber yard rather than a home improvement store. Lumber yards cater to builders and remodeling contractors instead of the home project crowd. They will generally have a better selection of product for your use. Also tell them what you are doing, take your plans and copies of photos. They will probably be very helpful to you. One more thing on the 1X stock, if you can find quarter sawn rather than plain sawn material you will have better results. It doesn't have to be clear, it can have some small tight knots. But try to avoid the grain running across the width of the board, Much better if it runs across the narrow part of the board. Either vertical grain or quartersawn wood will look that way. The other will warp or cup even when glued.

You might want to get a West Marine Catalog, they are on the web and they will be more than happy to send one to you. They carry 5200 along with other sealants. They do ship if you can't find it locally. I would expect that it might be a little difficult in the Allentown area. When you get there, just don't use a silicone caulk instead.

[capt jake]

My thinking is that if you sealed up plywood with any of these items, then assembled the parts your bond would ...

If you are going to epoxy coat everything, you can either;

1 - mask off the glue joint, so that you have wood-wood surfaces..or

2 - Epoxy seal everything and then sand with 60 or 80 grit on hte glue jopint areas. This is the method I would use, as I have had great success in the past doing such. The under deck stays for my kayak hatches were attached this way with no mechanical fasteners! :shock: They are still holding!!

[Bill]

I guess the basic school of thought here is to leave anything that is to get glued or epoxy/glued is to be left bare until the joint gets put togather and that makes sense. I think I'll tape up the areas that will be getting glued and screwed and try to epoxy/prime and paint surfaces as I go along before assembly. I like the thought of painting on flat horizontal surfaces to avoid drips etc. and it's just so much faster and neater. The use of the 5200 on the inside does seem sort of needless if the Hull is all fiberglassed on the outside. Then again if you have any water sitting in the boat I would suppose it might help from having it go into the joints from the inside and causing any problems. I've read so many different views about the Epoxy everything vs. letting the wood breath vs. checking problems vs. epoxy only on deck vs. fiberglass on deck vs. latex paint vs. 2 part paints vs. 5200 and no 5200, 3 coats of varnish versus 5, pine vs. douglas fir vs. oak vs. acx vs. Marine plywood... ahhhhh, I think what will happen will be just depending what mood I'm in at the time and how the expenses are running that week. It really doesn't matter, no matter what I do someone will agree with me and another one won't!! That's cool though...That's what keeps this place from getting boring...

Thanks for the input folks..I'll think on it..

Bill

Hey Jake, I was reading a chapter in a "Fine Woodworking" Book tonight on building an HVLP for about $150... not a bad thought after seeing your results. I guess the real cost resides in the actual spray gun where you can spend up to a few hundred bucks just for that. I wonder if I built the compressor etc. if I could just rent a gun for a few bucks somewhere.

[capt jake]

Bill, you can rent a gun for a reasonable amount, but why?? After you spend the time to learn, you might as well buy it!! I should have done that, but I will buy an HVLP for the next project. The thing with these are; Practice, practice, practice!! I have sprayed a long time ago, but when I got this offer, I couldn't refuse!!

Fear not on the coating!! As I have said; as long as you sand the glue surface, no problem! Better to do it now versus later; trust me on that point! Painting?? I have finally found the solution.... A whizz foam roller!! 4" and a very fine foam. They withstand even the harshest solvents!! Rolling out latex (go slow) they produce a fine orange peel effect (very fine). I find it a very pleasing finish! It shines, yet hides all of the boo boo's!

You need to make some 'dust' before you get to this point anyway!! You are worse that me!! :D You will certainly inherit the 'crown'! ;D ;)LOL

[tdrown]

Thanks for the advise!

I have called maybe about 15 lumber yards and already know that a certain home improvment store has 1x's in poplar, oak, and firewood grade pine (they call it #2, but...), I have called maybe a quarter of the places on this list http://tyler.drown.org/lumber.txt, all of them that I called only carry 1x4"s in white pine, even the local store Ritter & Smith, which cuts the lumber on location said they only had #2 Pine (when I called about keel wood they even gave me a quote for all teak! I called 75% of the places on that list to get quotes for the 1x12"x14's). Today I cut the bulkheads (but holes need be cut in fore bulkhead and the cabin bulkhead needs to be carved out yet), and tomorrow (well today, it's midnight) I plan on getting the resin glue that should be at the Hardwood store by then. I could buy two 1x12"x8' and rip them into the jointers, I think I might have the choice of cedar there if that is any good. Basically I have had a tought time finding anything but white pine, western red cedar, and white oak in a 1x matterial, and only white pine in 1x4". About the 5200, I called maybe 10 places, no luck, I don't have the video (one is being sent I am told) and I don't think it explicitly says anything about applying it on the stringers and jointers, but this is where I would use it correct? I hope to glue the keel Saturday and joint the bottom and the deck, but I need to buy the wood first. But could I use DAP's Plastic Resin glue in place of this adhesive/sealant?

Tyler S. Drown

[capt jake]

But could I use DAP's Plastic Resin glue in place of this adhesive/sealant

Yes, you can use that. Fear not on the adhesive. If you can find a supplier who has PLU (?) brand adhesives (Loew's) In this line you can find a poly-urethane adhesive for about 3.99 vs $15 as the marine store. It will work just as well as 5200!!

Forge on!!! You will beat me to a launching!! :D

[Frank Hagan]

Hey Jake' date=' I was reading a chapter in a "Fine Woodworking" Book tonight on building an HVLP for about $150... not a bad thought after seeing your results. I guess the real cost resides in the actual spray gun where you can spend up to a few hundred bucks just for that. I wonder if I built the compressor etc. if I could just rent a gun for a few bucks somewhere.[/quote']

I read a review that the el-cheapo HVLP spray gun from Harbor Freight was surprisingly good ... and something like $59.

[capt jake]

el Painter will be back in the near future, I will quiz him on the merits of the different guns!! Thanks Frank, I have been searching, and am 'frankly' confused. I will ask him...

Mr Drowns, it is PL brand, construction polyuethane adhesive. Not white (as 3M) but just as strong and hard!!

[Guest Brett in Bangkok]

Bill I glued my joints with either DAP or epoxy (depending where). When the boat was finished I applied 5200 along all joints...I've had leaks before in other boats and it's not too comfortable, especially with kids in the boat. I epoxied and then painted over the 5200 with no problems. I know a lot of people don't bother with the 5200 but I know who built the boat and all the insurance I can get is worth it.

[Guest byoung]

I should add that I epoxied the ply before construction and put the parts on while the epoxy was still curing. I used a few cans of spraypaint where it was difficult to reach to make it easier (no-one sees there anyway) but of course this is not an option for epoxying.

Brett

[tdrown]

I went to Home Depot Saturday and actually found the PL stuff (they said on the phone they had nothing of the sort) PL Premium Construction adhesive. It was maybe $2.39, I could check, I bought two and like it was mentioned it wasn't white, it's a very light brown. I also bought something called phenoseal, which is vinyl adhesive chalk, it was between $3 and $4, I haven't used any, should I keep it, return it, or use it for something else? I did buy 2 gal Bondo fiberglass resin and used it as a glue, will this work? But it's already been done, no turning back, I did it Saturday and it's not hardening yet (I did add the hardener), it is under the required 40deg. (sorry, I don't conrtol the weather or have space inside). Before I did it my neighbor told me maybe 3 days to cure, I just hope it will harden, maybe I didn't add enough hardener. I hope to 3d on Wednesday, or since I don't have much left, Tuesday.

[tdrown]

Phenoseal actaully has a web site (it's printed on the carterage), they actually started out in boat building

Not surprisingly given its location near the Atlantic coast, the Company responded to the need for high quality marine-formulated sealants. Its first product was a unique caulk made for use on the deck and hull seams of commercial and recreational wooden boats

http://www.phenoseal.com/ it also has "How to Caulk" and the "Caulkulator", just a point of interest for anyone who is bored or considering buying this product.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Tyler,

I know it is hard to wait for the Urea/resin glue to arrive. But stick to using it to glue your wood parts together or switch to a good two part epoxy. The Bondo resin is designed for making repairs to damaged fiberglass boats. It isn't really designed to hold wood boats together. It is a polyester resin and they are most suited for fiberglass.

The use of 5200 or PL construction adhesive may disappoint you in the long run if you are trying to use it instead of the Urea/resin glue or a good two part epoxy. It is primarily designated as a caulking to seal the seams along the stringers/plywood joints to keep water from entering that joint. Both can be painted over once they have cured. Both have adhesieve qualities and will hold things in place, but they really are not indicated as good glues for boat building. The PL adhesive would be a better choice of the two if you just can't wait to get the Urea/resin glue.

Temperatures are also very important to pay attention to. These glues and adhesieves really are formulated to work within the indicated temperature ranges. Outside that range they either don't setup correctly or don't set up at all. Either way you end up taking the assembly apart and going back to bare wood and doing it right. So....why not do it right the first time and not have to re-do it.

My grandfather taught me a good lesson in a couple parts: I will share them with you.

1) If you have time to do it over, why didn't you have time to do it correctly the first time?

2) Patience....my dear...patience! ( I know this is really hard!)

To this I can only add an old Pennsylvania Dutch saying: "The hurrier you go the behinder you get."

Don't rush it, it will come out much better and you will get it done a lot quicker. :wink:

[tdrown]

Today I figured that the resin wasn't exactly the perfect canidate, I did not use the PL adheasive as a glue for the keel, I used it on the joint in the plywood and I used it on the 1x4 jointer. For that joint I did find spruce by the way, although it's Hit and miss 1x12, one side was unplained and I had to cut it down to 4", it saved me money rather than going for 2 pine peices. I might have used it at one of two places where the wood meets on the keel, but I did not use it for the whole keel (and I would not want to imagine how much caulk that would be). It was warm this weekend here, 30's and 40's, but today it is supposed to be 20's. Hopefully the garage will remain 10 deg colder, it's unfortunate that my space heater was smashed by my plywood on day 2 of this project, otherwise it might be a little warmer. If the keel still looks bad by Tueday night and the Plastic Resin Glue is in, I might just disassemle it (if I still can) and use that, but I hope I won't have to resort to that. I like the PA Dutch quote, I live in the heart of PA Dutch Country, and I have heard that quote a few times before, maybe mixed in with the corrupt German they used to speak in these parts.

[tdrown]

To answer my own question... the Phenoseal "Does it all" I bought.

Marine

Caulk seams in wood planking, gunwales, and boat decks -- can be applied directly to damp wood.

Use as bedding for assorted cleats and fittings.

Seal windshields and other windows and ports.

Caulk seams where wood and fiberglass surfaces meet.

Repair small holes in hulls.

Glue canvas patches on sails, boat covers, tarpaulins.

Use as a self-patch over smaller holes.

Use below waterline when covered with a marine-quality coating.

No primers required on teak or mahogany.

Does it all!