wood and where to get it

[dale]

I'm thinking about building something using strip planking.  I'm considering the Selway Fisher 13' Woodlark or maybe the William Garden 12'4" Tom Cat.  Seems that western red cedar is the wood of choice for stripplanking.  Correct?  Can this be ordered from any lumber yard or are there only certain suppliers from where it has to be ordered?  Do the chain stores (i.e. Lowes, Home Depot etc) have anything that we as boat builders can use?  Can their cedar siding be used for anything? And I know that there are ideal woods but for us amateurs are there other choices that will suffice?  Seems like mahogany is used a good bit.  Sources for it? Lots of questions, thanks for your thoughts.

[Barry Pyeatt]

First off, where are you located?  You may have a lot of regional choices that are not immediately apparent to anyone just answering "off the cuff".

You might want to start with the following site to get a bit of an understanding of wood choices and what is considered appropriate and what is not and why.

www.glenl.com  Then scroll down to Wood and Plywood and start reading.  It is a good education if you want to get into those boats as a project.

If you are looking for 3/8" bead and cove western red cedar strips, there are a lot of sources and you can have some color choices as well. But if you have a router table, or plan on having one, you can make your own by purchasing lumber and ripping it down to size and then running it thru the router table.  The savings on a big project will more than likely offset the equipment you need.

Then go to the listings of wood suppliers on that site.  Good place to start.

If you are up here in the Pacific Northwest, I can recommend a few different places to start.  They are used to dealing with boat builders and will select materials for you that are appropriate to what you are doing.

The biggest issue with the "big box" stores is that they cater to the construction/remodeling contractor in their lumber stocks.  You can spend a lot of time trying to find what you need and may well end up totally frustrated in the process.  Cedar siding is tapered, thin at the top edge and thicker at the bottom edge.  Not what you are looking for unless you are siding a boat shed.

[Frank Hagan]

Where are you located, Dale? 

I think its white cedar that is used in planking, but others here will know.  Your location is key though, as the local market is usually cheaper than buying remotely and paying freight to get the wood to you.

[dale]

Sorry, guys.  I was thinking my location was listed here.  I'm in NW Georgia. 

Thanks for the link to the Glen-L site.  I've just spent about an hour on it reading about wood.  Lot's of stuff to digest - heartwood, sapwood, etc.

I will look at the suppliers listed here too.

[dale]

Here's what Glen-L says about ATLANTIC WHITE CEDAR:

(Southern white cedar, swamp cedar, juniper)

23 lbs. per cubic foot, 1.92 lbs. per board foot

The wood is soft, brittle, weak, and splits readily. However, it is low in shrinkage even though it soaks up considerable water. Because of this and its decay resistance, the wood is frequently used for conventional planking, especially in areas where the material is grown (notably along the Atlantic seaboard and Gulf states mainly in swamps), and on boats which will. be in and out of the water frequently. It has little use in plywood boat building.

And here's what they say about LONGLEAF YELLOW PINE:

(Southern pine)

41 lbs. per cubic foot, 3.42 lbs. per board foot

Grown in the Southern, Atlantic, and Gulf states, there are several varieties of Southern pine. However, the "longleaf" type is best for boat use. The wood is an orange to reddish brown in color, but all species are similar and difficult to differentiate. The dense heartwood is considered almost as decay resistant as white oak. The wood is strong, straight grained, and hard, however this can vary. The sapwood can be easily treated to improve its decay resistance. Often substituted for white oak.

Concerning WESTERN RED CEDAR:

While often used for conventional planking, it is not highly recommended for this use.

Looks like they would "recommend" the first two over the WRC.

[BobSmalser]

Here's what Glen-L says about ATLANTIC WHITE CEDAR:  ....soft, brittle, weak, and splits readily. However, it is low in shrinkage even though it soaks up considerable water.

Concerning WESTERN RED CEDAR:

While often used for conventional planking, it is not highly recommended for this use.

I'd stick with the USDA Wood Handbook for accurate information on wood.  Any source trying to sell you on plywood should be taken with a big grain of salt when talking about solid wood alternatives.

http://www.woodenboat.org/festival/Guide/guide_alcyone.htm

Google Alcyone and you'll find an 85-footer planked with WRC, as have many thousands of successful vessels of all sizes out here where it is the most common cedar.  No cedar is prone to absorbing "considerable" water if it's kept coated with finish.  Or without finish for that matter.  In fact, it's the denser woods like oak that more easily reach the high MC's associated with weight increase and rot.  No cedar is "brittle", either...although among the lightweight cedars you'll find Atlantic White significantly easier to bend than stiffer (and stronger) Western Red.  A quick perusal of the USDA Handbook will reveal that if you rank all North American softwoods for flexibility, Atlantic White Cedar is #3, and Western Red is #4.

In Georgia your best bet is Atlantic White Cedar available along the coast from several sources.  Try woodfinder.com, woodweb.com and local fence building companies.  WRC is only more used in strippers because there is more of it, and from bigger trees with lots of clear stock available.  (I grown, mill and make lots of money on my cedar...even when sold as logs.)  The properties of the two woods are sufficiently close that you couldn't tell two otherwise identical canoes apart providing they were painted.    According to some I've heard from on the WBF, AWC is in good supply now in North Carolina because of hurricane salvage.

[dale]

Sounds like good advice, Bob.  I must admit, I was a bit surprised by the comment re WRC knowing I had seen so many builds with it. 

What might be comparable to the Atlantic white cedar out here on the east coast?

BTW: I enjoyed your post re wood rot

[Gregg]

I found a good source for some wood here in KY. Look in your area for a Company doing custom architectural millwork work for homes, office etc. They had the southern yellow pine I bought for my mast and spars in stock. They can get just about anything kind of wood you want. It is bought rough, then dressed out at the factory. Make friends with the right person there because they always have lots of scrap, which they take home and burn through the winter I am told. I have a stack of walnut from them 4 foot tall. Not enough to make a boat, but enough to make other things for the boat. Good Luck

Almost done Weekender builder,

Gregg

[BobSmalser]

What might be comparable to the Atlantic white cedar out here on the east coast?

Chamaecyparis thyoides, the Atlantic White Cypress (or Atlantic white-cedar[1]) (or Juniper locally), is an evergreen coniferous tree in the genus Chamaecyparis, of the cypress family Cupressaceae. It is also known as "Atlantic White Cedar" (confusing because it is a cypress, not a cedar). It is native to the Atlantic coast of North America from Maine south to Georgia, with a disjunct population on the Mexican Gulf coast from Florida to Mississippi.

The tree grows to 15-25 m (50-80 ft) tall, with feathery foliage in moderately flattened sprays, green to glaucous blue-green in colour. The leaves are scale-like, 2-4 mm long, and produced on somewhat flattened shoots. The cones are globose, 4-9 mm diameter, with 6-10 scales.

There are two geographically isolated subspecies, treated by some botanists as distinct species, by others at just varietal rank:

Chamaecyparis thyoides subsp. thyoides (Atlantic White Cypress). Atlantic coast. Leaves and cones usually glaucous blue-green; cones 4-7 mm long. (Least concern)

Chamaecyparis thyoides subsp. henryae (Gulf White Cypress). Mexican Gulf coast. Leaves and cones always green, not glaucous; cones 6-9 mm long. (Near threatened)

Atlantic White Cedar

 

The genus Chamaecyparis is composed of six species native to Japan, Taiwan, and both coasts of North America. The word chamaecyparis is derived from the Greek chamai (dwarf) and kuparissos (cypress). The term thyoides means "like Thuja", a related genus containing northern white cedar. The other two North American species are Port Orford cedar (Chamaecyparis lawsoniana) and Alaska cedar (Chamaecyparis nootkatensis).

Other Common Names: Amerikansk vit-ceder, Atlantic white cedar, cedar, cedre blanc d'Amerique, cedro bianco, cedro bianco americano, cedro blanco americano, cipres blanco, cipresso bianco, coast white cedar, juniper, kogelcypres, post cedar, retinospora, southern white cedar, swamp cedar, swamp-cedar, swano white cedar, vit-cypress, white cedar, white chamaecyparis, white cypress, witte Amerikaanse ceder, zeder-zypresse.

Distribution

Atlantic white cedar is native to the Coastal Plain of the eastern US from central Maine south to northern Florida and west to southern Mississippi.

The Tree

Atlantic white cedar reaches heights of 60 feet, with diameters of 1 foot. Under optimal growth conditions, this tree can reach heights of 120 feet, with diameters of 5 feet.

The Wood

General

The sapwood of Atlantic white cedar is narrow and white, while the heartwood is light brown with a reddish or pinkish tinge. The wood has a characteristic aromatic odor when freshly cut and has a faint bitter taste. It is light weight and has a fine texture and a straight grain. It is moderately soft, low in shock resistance and is weak in bending and endwise compression. It is very resistant to decay, works easily with tools, shrinks little, finishes smoothly, holds paint well and splits easily.

Working Properties: It works easily with tools, finishes smoothly, holds paint well and splits easily.

Durability: Atlantic white cedar is rated as resistant to very resistant to heartwood decay (11).

Preservation: No information available at this time.

Uses: Historical: poles, shingles, wooden ware (tubs, pails & churns) and lumber (siding molding, water tanks, boat construction, boxes, crates and fencing).

Currently: cooperage, wooden household furniture, boat building, fencing and industrial millwork.

http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/SoftwoodNA/htmlDocs/chamaethyoid.html

[dale]

thanks everyone for the additional input.  I stopped by a locally owned building supply house today and they had a good supply of WRC of various dimensions.  I took a look at their stack.  Their 1x material is finished on one side, ranges from 1x4 up to 1x12 in various lengths.  The 1x6 is $1.05 a ft and the price went up to $2.45 a ft for 1x12.  Of course, this is totally new to me but in looking at the wood it here was what I saw - grain running in various directions.  Didn't see any that had grain perpendicular to the width.  None of it was totally clear but most of the knots were small, scattered, and seemed tight.  It did not look like it was all split up either.  Does this sound like it might have possibilities?

And BTW, I've learned about scarfing plywood, but do you scarf cedar strips too?

[Barry Pyeatt]

Yes, you can scarf cedar or most any other wood.  The length of the scarf joint can be critical to its outcome however.  I've had some scarf joints that were as little as 8 to 1 that held well on even some relatively tight bends, but a 12 to 1 on most of them worked out better.   

How well the scarf joint itself is fabricated can make a huge difference in how strong it may become. The biggest challenge if using epoxy is to not clamp it so tightly that the joint becomes "starved" of epoxy and then fails.  I had even gone so far as to predrill long dowel holes in the ends of both pieces that were aligned before scarfing them and then using dowels to help strengthen the joints.  Never had one of them fail but they are hard to align and drill without a good jig.  I've also set in splines that helped as well and offered some interesting contrasts to the joints.  Also increased the amount of glue surface that helped to make them much stronger. 

You may want to also spend some time at the West Systems website reading upon epoxy use in boat building.

http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/moreinfo/composite.htm

This is more or less the bible for the industry and a good source of information that will help a lot in building your project.

[tnzeibig]

Great Post!  I'm in a similar situation. I'm in the Northeast, and building a 28' designed for plywood on frames (1/2" sides, doubled 1/2" bottom)- but I'm considering stripping the hull with White Cedar - hopefully to save cost, but mostly 'cause I like the idea. (The designer - Stambaugh, has ok'd stripping it) My question is how thick the strips (hull wall) should be?  3/4",  1"?... - what is generally put on a boat this size?

Tom

[dale]

Nice design, Tom.  CBD has some nice looking boats.  How far along are you?

[tnzeibig]

Well, I've got the Windward frames/bulkheads nearly completed - starting prep on the Stem, Transom and keel.  This has been a very 'learning' experience. I've built a plastic shed over a heavy cable between two trees. The basic building backbone is ready, and my brother-in-law just dropped off 600lbs of lead.  So, it's moving slowly along.

I've tried to stay away from using epoxy (alergic), but I do use it for some structural joints that won't require sanding.  This boat won't be getting a fiberglass/epoxy covering,  so I'll be using Boiled Lindseed oil / Oil Primer / Oil Paint to finish it.

For Glue I'm using mostly 3M5300 - amazing stuff - but takes a while to cure.  For between the strips, I'll probobly go with the 5300, but I read about some older stripped boats that used only paint or caulking between strips. interesting.  It's tough to find info on how  strippers were built pre-epoxy.

[tnzeibig]

That should be 3M5200 -  ???

[dale]

You've tackled a pretty good size project, Tom.  No doubt it will run into several years to completion.  Not sure about stripping w/o epoxy though I was on a site the other day where a guy built a carvel planked Tom Cat.  Nice site.  He used cotton then sealed it with some kind of caulk and red lead  paint.

http://www.dc004.com/oct.html

[BobSmalser]

  It's tough to find info on how  strippers were built pre-epoxy.

That's easy out here.  Just go find one and look.  There are surprising numbers of ancient WRC strippers still afloat.  My family built only planked boats, but we had a crew.  Traditional strippers of the past were boats the commercial fisherman built himself, because the "planks" are easier to handle.  They were often heavier and clunkier than planked boats.

Strips were got out using TS or BS and planer.  The most common strip was milled square like decking stock, so the qsawn face could be placed horizontally to minimize seasonal movement between sheer and keel.  5/4 was a common dimension for square stips in boats to 26', with 6/4 also common at the upper size end.  Lotsa thickness is lost to fairing.

The hulls were usually assembled sheer-up atop the backbone around molds, with the strips bedded to each other and backbone members with White Lead or tar, and fastened using galvanized finish nails driven through the top edge of each strip into the strip or framing member below it.  Much of this could be done without clamps.  The strips could be steamed for bending if necessary, with one man working from the center of the bend outwards.  They could also be beveled to provide tumblehome.  Some hull shapes required a "football" or cheaters to plank, others didn't.  If you were a fisherman, there was usually a close example of plank layout nearby to copy.

The hard part was fairing all those square edges after the hull was assembled.

[tnzeibig]

Wow!  Thanks Bob - very good info. I'll go with 5/4 cedar.  I'm thinking that the fairing may not be to bad - this boat was designed for plywood, and so I'm basically building straight flat hull walls - but I've been wrong before.  The only thing I'm concerned about is using the 5200 as caulk - when it comes to fairing, 5200 doesn't come off - but from what you're saying, I could probably use something less adhesive - white lead, or caulking maybe.

Dale, I took a look at the Tom Cat - very humbling - they are doing an incredible job.  I'll be happy if mine looks half that good when completed.  Yeah, It will probably take a couple of years to complete, I try to work on it a full 3 minits at at time - then I need to spend time with the kids and wife. Just enough time to measure a board or take a clamp off.  On the bright side, all the time between the 3min spurts, I can spend figuring out what to do next. :-)

Tom