First post and a few ?'s

[Allapattah]

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post and I have never built a real boat, only a "rocking boat" for my nephew when he was born. I was a carpenter by trade and now I am a Project Manager for a General Contractor.

My eyes have been opened to the stitch and glue process of boatbuilding. I have talked to Graham a couple times about building a flats boat for shallow water fishing. My intention is to build a 17 to 18 foot skiff with very low freeboard and agressive V-entry up front that tapers very quickly to almost flat at transom, similar to a Hell's Bay Skiff. Modern day production "technical poling skiffs" are very expensive here in Florida and I would like the challenge of creating something similar.

I am more confident than ever that this can be done with the butterfly system in the designs I see at B&B. But, realizing that most of you here are into sailboats, does anyone have any suggestions or cautions about using the same building methods for a power boat like I described?

Specifically, plywood thickness, transom material, finishes, etc.

Also, if I used 1/4" panels for the bow section (to bend properly) how would I scarf to 3/8" panels for the rest of the hull, or can I?

Thanks in advance for any input. I have really enjoyed reading through these forums and feel like I already know some of you.

Seth.

[Charlie Jones]

First, welcome aboard. It's a good place and has lots of knowledgable people

Can't help with te design part, but on the bending of ply I can.

The Princess design ( along with many others) uses 1/2 ( or 12mm) ply on the main part of the bottom. The bow sections are developed using strip planking techniques. You use narrow strips of thin ply on a diagonal then another layer over that, either the same direction but half lapped, or run the other way. Repeat til the correct thickness is achieved. You can make some VERY tight curves and flares by doing it that way. All depends on the width of strips you use.

Commonly known as "cold molding"

[Guest Oyster]

Don't worry about all the rag merchants here. There are folks that do a lot of work on boats that have been exposed with multiple designs and building technigues. If I don't loose my internet, I can provide some thoughts with a couple of pictures of a 16 and 19 footer that fits your bill. In your first boat, some of this bending is a bit foreign, but not that hard to do at all. Even with the strip method, you must first decide the design that also dictates scantling sizes. This also is dictated by the building technigue, S&G, encapsulated with certain types of glass, and bulkheads incorporated with longituals, which some plans have too.

[Tom Lathrop]

The basic answer to your first question is yes, you can scarf 1/4 ply to 3/8 for twisting to the bow shape. This is how the CS 17 and CS 20 are built. You may want to add 18 oz biaxial glass cloth on the interior of the thinner forward part (I did this recently on a runabout) which will make it very strong.

Oyster probably has some designs in mind for you. There are also plans for flats boats available that sound just like what you want.

[JeffM]

Welcome aboard, Seth! Can't wait to see the design you settle on.

[Allapattah]

Thanks for all the responses and welcoming.

Actually, Tom, the CS 17 is what I had in mind when I asked the question, the design really caught my eye first and that bow profile is really close to what I'm looking for. So, would the scarf method be the same as everywhere else, except that one side is thinner? Then you build that up with cloth and I guess taper it down to make fair?

Oyster, thanks I'd love to see some pics. Just to be clear, I would like to build the hull similar to the way the CS and the Spindrift is done. Meaning that the basic hull will go together without alot of framing, just bottom and side panels. I've drawn out some of my own plans and made probably ten different models out of poster board and I think I might have something here.

Graham sent me some concept type sketches a few weeks ago that are really close, but I know how really busy he is and full plans might take quite a while. So, before I start on anything I think I will wait a little longer for Graham like I told him I would, but in the mean time I'm just trying to learn as much as I can.

Thanks again for all the response.

[Guest Oyster]

There are several things to consider in the choices of a flats boat. First you must get out of your mind the idea of comparing a S&G hull to the production built boat such as the Hell Bay boats. The are several reasons for the high costs of such boats, and one is the materials that goes into the boats that cost big money to make them liteweight and truely make them a composite hull with little to no wood in them. This helps also for the sales in the fiberglass markets. But weight is the key issue for also keeping them shallow draft, too.

Along those lines, with the liteweight, comes the issue of a terrible ride in open water, too, in little draft, even though you have the vee entry in them. The vee in the bow, really only helps day end and day out for really shallow water chop, and in the issue of noise in choppy water fishing while sitting still, versus a completely flat bottom.

Many plan sellers have designs that you speak about, and have sold numerous plans. And thats fine for the novice guy that has lust on the brain over some time on the water in these type hulls.

A very popular model is the Phantom 16 from a Florida plan seller Bateau.com. We and many others had some numerous errors with the bottom layup and required some winging it in the initial hull construction.

I have spent several years on and around this particular hull, and can say that its not my personal favorite day end and day out for several reasons.

For the amount of beam on the boat for the length, which does make it a stable platform, the boat is only fine in really shallow water running. Now I know this will bring about many snears from many of its owners, but in my particular use, the requirment was to be able to run in deep water that also consisted of swell and tides, which caused a lot of mixed up water.

The boat really was not long enough, with enough bow to make it even tolerable for our use. They do sell two larger versions, but I have no experience with them. They also spec out a huge amount of foam, and interior grids, making the hull, a semi-closed coffin.

The foam has helped keep people floating because of a close encounter with stumps, but to repair such hulls, when holed, its almost impossible to do so without taking the thing apart almost completely in the closed up areas, which is where most of the holes may end up being. Yes you can patch the hull, but water inside is a big issue in the closed foam areas. I never feel just right unless I can get to both sides.

So my point in all of this, think bigger, as its not always a problem with needing a large engine for running fast. There are only certain times that you will be able to do so, under most all days of fishing.

Even fishing in Florida, the winter season can get some nasty cold fronts, causing nasty chops.

I think that 19 to 20 is not a bad choice and not that hard to build for that nicer entry that you can do, with more of a gradual transition from the running bottom to the vee entry. There are several ways that the bow can be worked out in the building process, either the scarfing, or shiplaping two layers into the thicker plywood in the flatter areas. But weight can get out of hand, in a boat of this type, if the boat is a wide platform which gives you the huge advantage of walking around them. There are really narrow production built boats, that are done for the single reason of weight in glass hulls, unless alternative materials such as Kevlar is used. So you cannot really cannot compare multiple designs to beam and lengths, to what you are attempting to do in woods. The types of plywood and glass, is very critical when you do this boat. Forget about going out to the big box stores and get get price comparison out of your mind, in the beginning. The labor is actually less if you go the best you can buy right from the beginning.

Since you admit that you are beginner, build a small pram or something, to get the feel for using epoxy and plywods. You can waste a lot of expensive epoxy unless you understand the working properties, curing, potlife, and spreading and wetting out glass. The fairing process, making the hull smoothe, is very labor intensive, and some of this can be elimnated depending on how actually wet out your cloths. In Florida, you will be dealing with temperatures that will effect your work habits and these materials.

Let me show you the difference in several flats boat bottom.

Phantom 16

This is the Ken Hankinson Flats Flyer that was drawn in 18, and extended to a bit over 19, if I recall correctly. These plans are no longer avaliable as he quit the business. But a good friend built this one and its in Sebastian Florida now. The boat plans were plywood on frame construction, but can be converted to what you are talking about.

Here is another production boat, that is 20 feet, with a different more open water design, with a bit more freeboard.

[Charlie Jones]

Nice boats Oyster. Now here's a picture of a flats boat from the Texas coast.

Motor on a jack plate, tunnel hull, flat bottom. Some of them will run in 4 inches. Some will go onto a plane in less than 6 inches of water- they crank it around in a circle as they increase throttle and go on plane on the stern wave

NOT dry boats by any means and boy will they pound. But they sure get you into some skinny water.

Not suggesting you build anything like this Seth. Just posted the pic to show some differences in the east coast NC boats and the ones used here.

Oyster has an excellent suggestion by the way- build a small boat first, some sort of dinghy perhaps. That'll teach you a LOT with a small cash outlay. Something like one of Grahams Spindrifts . If you aren't into sailing, do it as a row boat. That'll give you something you can learn on AND something to get you into those tiny spots to fish Besides, every body needs more than one boat, right?

[Greg Luckett]

Don't worry about all the rag merchants here. There are folks that do a lot of work on boats that have been exposed with multiple designs and building technigues. ......

Just curious, but what are you talking about, "rag merchants" and who expressed a worry? :? Have I missed something again

[Guest Oyster]

realizing that most of you here are into sailboats

first posting 8)

[Greg Luckett]

LOL, now I get it. Duh me Thanks for guiding me.

What a dull boat building world it would be if we were only restricted to sail boats. I have wanted to build a hover craft for years but just never seem to go beyond plan sets. Another dream is a twin engined trawler that could be lived aboard. When the water is like glass, that is when a speed boat is the most fun too, going like a bat out of hxxl. That boat Charlie showed from the Texas coast looks like fun 8) . Of course, if I could only have one boat, it would have a sail.

[Guest Oyster]

What a dull boat building world it would be if we were only restricted to sail boats.

I have never been restricted to one type of boat. I didn't demean sailboats either. I attempted to address the topic and the posting, to the best that I could, too, if I was in his shoes, coming here, in a way of saying don't feel frightened by all of this hotair talk. :wink: Lateer

[Charlie Jones]

*I* knew what you meant Mike. And it was a nice thing to tell him.

I'm not totally a rag hanger either by the way

Sometimes ya just wanna go fishin' and get there quick!!

[P Doug (WA)]

I say the mor varity of boats the better. They are all interesting as long as some one it building or restoring it's worth talking about and looking at.

[Greg Luckett]

Woooppps....I did it again. Oyster, I did not mean to imply that you were down on sailboats, but trying to say that I agree with you. Any type of boat building/builder is most welcome here, and it is good that you told the new folks that! Damn, I usually don't confuse things this badly without lots of beer or maybe before my morning pot of coffee

Can I blame this on living with Yankees too long?

[Charlie Jones]

Yep- we'll buy that excuse Greg--

Said with tongue FIRMLY in cheek

[Guest Oyster]

Long ago, and not too far from some distant planet, I made numerous attempts to draw different boats onto this site since the site was so well run and managed. Along those lines, and in another place and time, I ventured out into the strange world of make believe, make believe that I was a boat designer, you know, and put together a strange configuation called a one off boat and displayed it rightchuhere on this here site. :wink: I like diversity but also found that I was treading in an eight knot current some days.

I also recall that Frank has long been friendly to several lines of some boats that could also be labled as a bit out of the ordinary, offering space for that line of floats, covering multiple use boats. I think its important to address any area or design that a person brings here, whether it may or may not be the best from other folks perspective. Heck look at that junk that CJ posted. :wink:

It does take some feeling out, in the beginning, to gauge the right avenue a person should take if you were in their shoes. Two or three posts is hardly enough to do so, and places second on my lists in response until such time I personally have more info. I have actually left the best out here, that really fits my yearly needs.

I personally have not found too many what is known as the Flats Boats that will work for me, except for about five days of fishing for me. Thats not going to cut it with my funds. But millions are being made on those designs too.

[Allapattah]

Wow, thanks for all the talk. I've been away over the weekend and didn't think my post would get any mor looks so thanks again.

Oyster, and others, thanks for the tips, I actually looked into the Phantom line and thought it was a handsome boat, but not quite what I had in mind. When I said "like a Hell's Bay" I was just trying to let y'all know what kind of fishing I do, and what kind of performance I'm after. I wouldn't try to replicate, but create something that does what it does.

I realize that all boats come with their own set of comprimises. First off, my #1 priority is shallow draft and how it poles. How it handles a chop or waves is actually pretty far down on my list. I am more concerned with how it fishes. I spend hours at a time, if not a whole day, where I never get deeper than 4 feet of water. I am willing to take a rough ride or get a little wet if it means better performance when it comes time to fish shallow.

So, an 18' boat with about 15" freeboard and around 70" beam is what I'm trying to do. A sharp v-entry and a layout that tapers towards the stern, so it tracks better when under pole, like an arrow.

By the way, I know you guys have a vast knowledge of all boats, not just sailboats, that's why I posted here. Anyways, after reading all about sailing, now I actually want to do a sailboat some day.

And, since I am a beginner, I think it is a good idea to start on a smaller project first. Just to get the hang of it. Charlie's right, you can't have too many.

Thanks again, for the discussion, and the pics. I'm still open to all ideas.

Seth.