Princess 28, Yes!!!

[Garry]

I am extremely excited and pleased to announce that plans for the Princess 28 are underway! I asked Graham if I could have the pleasure of announcing the P28.

I contracted with Graham to design one for me. The cost was actually very reasonable for a custom design for two reasons. First, I will perform some of the layout and calculations under Graham's guidance. Second, Graham will make up some of the cost selling plans to others.

It is a pleasure working with Graham. And it's amazing what we can accomplish even though separated by 3,000 miles. Some of my ideas are pushing the limits a little and some of them have been reined in or dropped under Graham's wisdom and experience.

My desires for this design are a capable coastal and Caribbean cruising sailboat that is reasonably trailerable. Plus I want a simple and easy to handle rig like the cat ketch sailplan. (It is amazing how much expensive stuff is eliminated by the cat ketch rig when I look through the West Marine catalog.)

The lines below are the preliminary outlines for the hull (with Graham's permission). Only the hull outline and the waterline are shown to protect Graham's design. The lines and dimensions shown are to the inside of the hull to make it easier to build the frames for construction.

The hull will be strip-planked cedar with epoxy and glass inside and out. I may not actually be able to start construction for a while so I am beginning work on a model.

The design below that is my "Mystery Model" which is my version of the deck, cabin, and keel added to Graham's hull lines. I am anxious to see Graham's design for the deck when I get them.

I'll keep you all posted as the design develops.

[JeffM]

Only an 11" draft? Cool, Garry! May I ask, though, what you'll be getting in a p28 that you wouldn't in a P26? I hope we'll all be able to look at more detailed drawings soon.

[Ken_Potts]

Oh Gary - 11" draft in the Caribbean is going to be SOOO good! I just returned a week and a half ago from the Exumas (trip report will be posted when our official photographer sends me the photos) sailing a Sea Pearl 21 and there was an interesting dynamic. Whenever we sailed past big boats in deep anchorages I imagined the owners watching us sail across 2 foot deep flats with envy but at the same time we were camping on the beach and having to pitch tents at every campsite (I can't speak for the rest of the crew but I did wish for some of the big boat comforts at least once on the trip).

You are going to have the best of both worlds - You'll be able to go ANYWHERE in relative comfort! If it weren't for that darn easily managed cat-ketch rig I'd sign on as crew to help manage the boat underway - Arrgh!

I look forward to the photos of your model as a means to help me dream for the ideal caribbean trip...

[Garry]

No! 11" is only the depth of the hull. The draft with keel will likely be around 2 feet depending on the necessary ballast and stability requirements.

And the P28, even though only 2 feet longer will be a substantially larger boat than the P26. Longer, wider, deeper. And require substantially more construction time. Headroom will be about 5'-9". Enough for Victoria but I (6'-3") will have to be content with sitting headroom.

[Brent]

Garry, this boat is a very interesting addition to Graham's fleet. As the design develops please keep us informed.

I hope the design means your other boat now has a good new home, and life is settling in for you in your new location.

Through my own experiences I have become totally sold on the cat ketch concept for it ease of handling and total performance. I find my CS20 is very easy to singlehand, and quite maneuverable. It will be interesting to see how this scales up in a much bigger and heavier boat.

I see some salty experience translated into the preliminary design. This does look like a good islands boat. I suspect the cat ketch concept will allow for accomodations that feel like a much larger boat, due to no reguiring extensive bulkheads and structural reinforcement in the middle of the cabin compared to a sloop.

Cedar stripped construction will result in a beautiful hull - and a very nice view from inside the boat. I really enjoy cedar strip construction - it offers a most satisfying zen for the builder.

[Howard]

The version of the Princess 28 plans I've seen are of the 26 stretched to 28 feet. Same design scaled up to 28 feet. It really opens things up.

Presumably, the base 26 or 28 would be built the same way as the 22. Same type of plywood bottom. The strip plank, rounded bottom design opens lots of questions for me. The only way I've seen that done is with bulkheads supplemented with temporary lofted panels, or just lofted panels with bulkheads added after the hull is turned.

Parker's cold molded designs have the same rounded bottom as above, but uses fore and aft tongue and groove lumber, supplemented with double diagonal plywood skins over that to the chine level, then plywood topsides to the sheer line. Extremely strong construction. But it seems to me like both types are harder to build than a plywood bottom. You can still put some gentle arc in a plywood bottom.

What do you gain with the cedar strip arc bottom? If there an advantage I'm not aware of or is it an asthetics/personal preference issue?

In this version, is the CB still off centered or has it moved to the center? Lead keel?

I know it adds some complexity, but on this big of a boat, is there any advantage in going to booms vs. sprits on the sails? I'm thinking from the standpoint of sail handling, reefing, etc.

But as for the 28' design, I'm going to be one of those supplementing the design cost buy ordering a set of plans.

[Garry]

Here are some answers to some of your questions. I'll upload my accommodation plan later.

What will the beam be? 8

[Noklin]

Great!! I want one!!

Will the mast be free standing or stayed? Will the mast be tabernacle mounted for easy dropping or this too much to expect when you get to a boat this size?

[Guest Oyster]

Parker's cold molded designs have the same rounded bottom as above, but uses fore and aft tongue and groove lumber, supplemented with double diagonal plywood skins over that to the chine level, then plywood topsides to the sheer line. Extremely strong construction. But it seems to me like both types are harder to build than a plywood bottom. You can still put some gentle arc in a plywood bottom. Parker

[Garry]

Will the mast be free standing or stayed? Will the mast be tabernacle mounted for easy dropping or this too much to expect when you get to a boat this size?

The masts will be self-standing. I hope that they will be tabernacle mounted and fairly easy to raise and lower; manually or with a lifting rig. Graham has some experience with carbon fiber which may make this more feasible. Building them myself should be possible. This design will have to evolve later.

[Howard]

One of my thoughts on the booms vs. sprits idea was that for a rig this size, getting the masts up and down might be a problem. If the masts are left on tabernacles, you could reverse the booms and use them as gin poles. That and using lazy jacks for sail handling. The sprits eliminate the vangs, but a lot of problems are solved with booms. Neatly stowing sails is one of them. They can be flaked on top of the boom and covered. They can also be jiffy reefed from the cockpit if need be. I think if you use jaws on the boom, you can still let the sails out forward of the masts, especially if you lace the sails to the mast instead of using a track. Lacing is an option with booms.

Or it could be that I'm coming from a sloop world and don't have a clue.

I'm 100% sold on the cat ketch rig however.

[john bowen]

Gary, will the design be beechable at low tide and still stable? Ideal for the island hopping life.

[Garry]

I would not plan to beach this boat (or any other) very often. In the right situation of course it could pull up to the beach but sand is rough on paint. And the motion of the water surface even for a firmly beached boat would cause a grinding action. Plus, with a 5-6,000 pound displacement and a retreating tide, the boat could get stranded.

With a 2 foot keel I would expect that I can get into knee deep water and wade in if I want to. Normally I would anchor in a little deeper water to account for tidal variations and take the dinghy in.

[klwood99]

This sounds like a great boat. Is it feasible to add 6 more inches of headroom space.

Kevin

[Garry]

Kevin, I'm 6'3" and would love to get 6 more inches of headroom but we are pushing it at 5'9". That's one of the trade-offs for a fairly light displacement 28 foot boat that is reasonably trailerable. To add any more freeboard and cabin height would distort the boat and add more ballast. I can stretch and straighten up in the companionway or on deck. I do plan to have a bimini top with 6'3" headroom over the cockpit.

In 1985, I finished a 28 footer from the hull and deck and pushed the cabin sole down to get 6'3". She was a great boat but not what I would consider trailerable. She weighed about 9,000 lbs and drew 4 ft (another version drew 3 ft with a centerboard). I lived on her for three years and loved that boat. See www.pbase.com/sailrosita/rosebud

[Garry]

More on mast and boom:

I spoke to Graham today for some advice on the model. We also talked about the masts and booms. Gaham feels the masts will be easily raised with the tabernacles by simply walking forward and pushing them into position. Especially if they are made with carbon fiber. He will keep similar proportions to previous models in relation to themast vs. hull length since this has worked well in the past and it works well for trailering. The sails will likely be full battened with plenty of roach to get good sail area while keep the center of effort low; plus there will be less flogging when reeefing and raising.

As for booms, Graham feels they cancel many of the advantages of the cat ketch rig. The vang would prevent free rotation around the mast. The vang would carry a lot of tension and the sheets would carry a lot more tension and require more blocks to get a safe load level.

I may want to consider wishbone booms instead of straight sprits for these large sails. But either one would be easily rigged for reefing. Graham described his reefing technique and it sounds relatively simple. For stowing, the sails can be dropped into a "hammock" under the boom and then stuffed into a bag similar to a jib bag. I would rather do this than leave them in the hammock except for short periods (overnight, etc.).

As for the model, I printed out the stations at 1"=12" scale. I printed them on large label making sheets so I can peel and stick them directly onto the plywood for cutting the frames. Plus I printed reference waterlines and vertical lines which mat be useful later on.

[Garry]

Some more questions and answers from the Tariler Sailor forum:

I see u have a pilot house and a way to keep the hatch from getting things wet down below.. The question is?/ do u have enuf beam for the sail plan necessary to make her a nice sailing vessel??

The beam, of course, is limited by trailer load width restrictions to 8'6". Graham's lines show about 7'6" to 7'8" beam at the waterline. The lines also carry the beam well aft. So it looks to me like the lines are designed to maximize beam within the restrictions.

The sailplan will be a cat ketch rig with the center of effort kept low by carrying full batten main and mizzen. The hull looks like it will be fast and easily driven. The amount of ballast will be determined after everything else is accounted for. Graham will be doing stability curves.

What is the distance between the cabin side and the edge of the deck?

It will be around 7-9 inches. I deliberately asked for that to improve the interior headroom and expansiveness. I had to push Graham on this so he may be offering plans with wider sidedecks. However, the wider cabin does provide higher ultimate stability if the boat is laid over.

I will not be installing lifelines. I really don't think they are effective. And they are big trip hazards and toe stubbers. I think they are more likely to cause a fall than actually prevent one.

The sidedeck path will be clear except possibly for a midship cleat and I will try to find a way to keep it in the cap-rail or maybe use one of those removable cleats.

I will install a very sturdy handrail at least 6" tall somewhat inboard on the cabin top to provide a solid handhold and tether connection rail. Plus I will have a toerail at least 3" high. I will feel a lot safer hanging onto a solid handrail than depending on the typical lifelines and grab rails.

Garry, I think that is a great trade off. W/O the lifelines to get in yourway it will be plenty. Does the toe rail get higher as you go forward?

No I think there is plenty of sheer and I want good consistent footing so I would keep it at the same height, 3-4".

I know that it is early and all we have seen so far is a sketch but what are your plans for forward cleats? Will you have hawse pipes in the side for the dock lines to go thru?

I would like to locate the cleats as near the edge of the deck as possible to eliminate hawse pipes or chocks and minimize chafe. I will add reinforcing as needed to get the cleats forward and near the edge. The toe rail will stop about 18" from the bow so it won't interfere with dock lines etc.

Is the pilot house going to be built out of ply or something else?

I'm thinking a sandwich of ply and rigid foam to keep it stiff and light.

[Leo Hill]

First off - I love the initial design.

Next, intended usage? Is this boat going to be an every (or every other) weekend boat that you tow to the launch point and then back home again?

I ask because of the total beam. At 8'6" (2590mm) you are indeed at the max legal - without a permit towing width in most states. Some states have a max legal width of 8' (2438mm).

But, in all but 3 or 4 states - can't remember exactly which right now - a private individual can to up to about 10'6" (3200mm) wide without a pilot car. Yes, you do have to have overwidth signs, and in some states flashing lights, and yes, you do have to have a permit. The permit as best I could research runs from $25 to $75 depending on the state. And yes, it's usually a one time trip and yes, you need another permit for the return trip.

My point? In a boat that is going to be used for a long-ish trip to The Bahamas during the winter - say 2 to 4 months - the boat could easily be towed behind a HD Pickup and the hassle/cost of the trip permits would be but a small part of the overall trip.

But if you are intending to frequently tow the boat for quick get-aways, then the hassle of a trip permit each time would outweigh the benefit of that extra 18"-24" of beam.

My thinking is that I want a retirement boat in the 9 (29.5') to 9.5 (31') meter range with the beam about 3m (9'10").

Usage would be as before - long-ish trips and not very frequent trailering episodes - say at most 3 round-trips per year.

Winter in The Bahamas - Summer in Maine as one example. How about Winter in the Sea of Cortez and Summer in Alaska as another?

In my research the only "absolute" that I've found (and it isn't really an absolute as there are ways around this) is the total height on the trailer. Interstate Highway System minimums are set at 13'6" (4114mm).

So doing the numbers, I've figured that the total height of the boat, from keel to the highest point when ready to trailer is about 3500mm, (11'6").

That leaves about 600mm (24") for the trailer axles and the trailer frame. That's reasonable if the trailer uses a dropped axle. Not if one specs a straight axle.

So Garry, just curious 'ya know, what's this design going to measure out when sitting on a trailer?

Best,

Leo

[Garry]

Hi Leo.

For our use we want it all! :wink: We anticipate locating in Jacksonville, FL. The boat would be used locally in St. Johns River and we may even get a slip there. The trailer allows pulling her out for bottom cleaning and maintenance at our own choosing with minimal cost. We also have the freedom to trail down to the Keys, across to the west coast of FL, or up to Georgia and the Carolinas easily. Or we could plan longer trips to the northeast and Maine, the Great Lakes, the Texas coast, or even the Baja and coast of Mexico!

We also want to feel comfortable and safe for coastal cruising and island hopping for extended periods. This boat will probably carry the maximum ballast acording to Graham's design calcs.

Our situation means that we won't be retiring or dropping out of the working world any time soon. So the more flexibility we have the more adventure we can have.

As for trailering size, we are pushing the limits. The legal and practical limit appears to be 8'-6" although others tell me they have hauled wider boats without trouble. Within this limit, Graham has pushed the waterline beam to the maximum reasonable at about 7'-8". I doubt that exceeding the 8'-6" beam will increase the waterline much.

I scale the height from keel to hard dodger at 9'-4". The mizzen tabernacle would add about 4" and the trailer would add about 18-20". So I figure the maximum height will be about 11'-6" or less with the hard dodger. (Without the dodger the height would be about about 10 feet.) So I don't think the height will be an issue.

Of course you are right that we could trailer an even larger design especially if we planned only to trail her a few times a year. But we would be giving up some flexibility that seems important to me now. And I'm not sure that we would gain any more of what we wanted. Boats are just one huge pile of compromises!

I like the feel of this boat. It will move easily and be easily handled. Graham is certain that we will be able to raise the masts by hand; especially if we build carbon fiber spars.

But then, once the 28 ft design is complete, scaling the design up to 30' with 9 ft beam or even 32 ft with 9'-6" beam sounds tempting.