Question for Tim Tone

[kydocfrog]

Tim, if you are still hanging around ever...haven't bothered you for a while, but I'm back.

I'm looking at your photos (Alda stirred my memory) and I have a question. On the photo on the trailer, it looks like you have an inner forestay. On the sailing photos it's gone. Is that a forestay or is it actually your jib stay just in a temporary position?

Thanks for the pictures!

DavidA in Kentucky

[adla]

I have a load of questions for him too - mainly about the measurements for the reef points - and his thoughts on lead bread ballast that he uses. Now that my boat is in the water and I have sailed a couple of times --- his site is all the more interesting.....

a.

[Tim Diebert]

Eh?

My inner stay is not a stay at all but a wired luff stay sail who's tack clips to a predetermined permanent spot(I think it is a pad eye...) I have a stay sail halyard always in place with the head shackle clipped to a fitting around the base of the mast. This way I just clip the hal shackle and tack point, feed some permanently attached sheets back aft and off I go. I don't use it all the time. I tend to use it as a storm sail. I prefer the big headsail when I want more sail forward.

The stay sail is a good combo with two reefs in.....but then in this little boat it is just about time to be looking for shelter if I am that deep.

I have used it in a 'cutterish' fashion and like it fine. Seems to make a nice slot and works well. Looks cool I guess but too much hassle to change tack on a regular basis.

I was out in such a wind one day I used the stay sail alone and sailed really well from slightly higher than a beam reach on down. Calms a nasty situation down some.

Cheers, TT

[adla]

Tim

- Now that Ray has your attention - would you tell me what you ran into when you put your reef points in? Your web site alludes to it being a bigger job than you imagined...any suggestions for someone about to embark on such a project? I have the same sails as you - the stock Stevenson ones.

a.

[kydocfrog]

Re. stay sail.

Ahh....I understand. That's cool. I've tentatively set up my mast to do the same.

DocA

[Tim Diebert]

Good one Mr. Frog, you are ahead of the game. The beauty of this wee sail is....it's wee, easy to handle in conditions that require it's use and with the inner tack position it keeps you within the the safe confines of the play pen walls.

Although even changing my forward headsail is a no brainer these days as I have the tack on an outhaul.

Adla. More work in the sense that you are sewing multiple layers of sailcloth, multiple times. I became very familiar and comfortable with my needle selection and palm. A lot of ass time is all. I just did it in a warm spot with the stereo handy. Quite a few hours I must say.

If you can wait, I can give you exact dimensions. Basically I used Charles Stocks recomendations. He, after 50 years of sailing a 17 foot boat and going through many sets of sail came to the conclusion that two 20% reductions is about right. I have tried his recomendations and another for my first set. The first set was pointless and useless...which in turn is dangerous. If your first reef is too far in, you go nowhere unless you are in survival conditions. Whereas even two in is used a lot on my boat.

There are a few other details Charles pointed out that I can share as well.

If you are interested let me know. I can also save you some time as far as the sizes of your re-enforcement pieces etc. Seems I stil have the patterns in the shop....somewhere. But could just measure my sails...which are more easily found.

I am working away from home this week and can't get the exact detailsand measurements for you until next Monday. Let me know.

Also, in my opion, you will be pleased as can be if you decide to go for a ballast box. Trust me. Last year I had the opportunity to sail the boat with and without...with some and with all. Having the blocks of lead allows you to experiment.

Un balasted, my boat sucks. The boat has more ability to carry way through a tack or through a chop. It is more comfortable to sail and to move around. It inspires confidence and comfort. It has no effect on speed. None. The only effect speed wise is it may be slower to accellerate and may not move as well in super light air. (I have more sail to help with that little issue.) Personally....light air perfornace is nothing compaired to sailing in big conditions. I much prefer to have lots of wind and be safe and comfy and to feel confidence in the boat.

The way I look at is this: I have as much weight in ballast as I would have if I took a larger friend sailing...only MY larger friend has been condenced into a small area and I have been able to talk him into sitting very still in one very advantageous spot for the whole sail....and he leaves my beer alone.

Try it, you won't be sorry....and if you don't like the feel....just take it out. Easy.

[adla]

Tim -

I can wait - to be honest, i was hoping you'd be so generous with info and suggestions. Having spent a great deal of time on your site - reading all your sailing reports etc...i am sold on needing reef points - it is both good and bad that desert lakes are so unpredictable - and i would feel so much better being able to reduce sail. Last time I was out - a real nasty wind picked up and there was chop and white caps and poof it went away, but i don't think i will always be so lucky.

i think i will try a ballast box. i couldn't get the nose to point through the wind and in fact did some nice circles because i was close to shore in a big wind and tryin to point away....the front of the boat just kept spinning around - it was so light and pounded a bit. i used my electric jib to get out of the mess but wouldn't mind a "friend" that didn't drink my beer. Plus, it was obvious when the big power boat left me a huge wake that the front of the boat was too light....and my mast too heavy.

i have plenty to do with steering and such - but look forward to your help on the reef points (i have an ipod - and patience for tedious tasks) i also appreciate your sailing reports and pictures - very informative and extremely inspirational.

thx!

a.

[Bud_Wilson]

Adla: If you can find someone that has a set of sail rite sail plans for your boat they have a page in them showing how to lay your reef points out . I have a set but mine are for a P/C. I think the main is about 140 sq. feet. I can send you a copy of them if you think they will help. Y'all Come Cap'N Bud.

[Phil Gowans]

Adla, I agree that reef points are very desirable on a weekender. When the wind pipes up, sailing can be close to impossible without them. I have only used them a few times, but when I have they have made all the difference in how the boat handles - from scarry (this is impossible) to wow this isn't so bad out here now, I think I'll make it back to the dock.

I put reef points into the home made sails, but don't know the position. My current dacron sails were built by UltaSail and I had Paul put in reef points (only one set). They seem to be right inbetween Tims points. I'd say about 2.5 feet. Mabey you can tell something from this picture:

[Tim Diebert]

Just from the photo Phil, I would say you are right....about half way between my two sets.

I just can't imagine having a boat without a way to reduce sail. I have never looked at a motor as an option. It is far better to be able to sail in crap water than to motor in it. Easier motion for sure. I generally use my motor when there is zero wind....or full pulling stumps.

Thanks for the compliment on my site stuff Adla. I didn't think anyone ever noticed that stuff. This time of the year I enjoy going over images of sailing in warm weather. I always miss sailing too much this time of year.

I am moving from the little town (Grand Forks) and little lake where I have been for the last 18 years to a much larger city right on one of our biggest/warmest lakes in BC. Okanogan Lake. If you read some of my site stuff you might have seen that I spent some days on that lake last year and had a riot. Now I can sail the 70 mile long lake any old time I like. I have already had an invite to crew on an Olson 25 for Thursday night racing out of Summerland...not now, but during the summer season. Could be fun.

[adla]

ahhhh Phil and the Aloha, what a lovely boat.

It is always nice to see the Aloha Phil! I've been looking at your track arrangement for the outhaul. You know, I actually toyed with the idea of making a reduced main out of tarp to get more experience - but, I think reef points are the long term answer. Tim's interested me since he and I have the same sail set and he has some good logic on his site for where he put the reef points and photos of them in use - big winds etc.

Bud, I don't know the exact sq ftg of the Weekender sail off hand (my plans are somewheres else) -

Tim,

I'm completely sold on your reef arrangement. The thing about your site and pictures is that not only are the photos fantastic, you talk a lot of good sense about sailing the weekender.

Sounds like you are in the middle of a big move! And yes, I have seen the pictures on Lake Okanogan. :shock: I can see wanting to be close to that lake. It is some kind of beautiful. My friends I recently visited in Hawaii live by a yacht club and sail once a week as crew for informal races...really fun from what I understand.

I appreciate your offer of dimensions and patterns for the reef points - no hurry, I can wait.

I'm still working out my general sail arrangement - I know I need to get the jib down, I have been using the top of the stay to fasten it and need to use the bottom...to get better shape. I've also got to get the loose foot on the main under control. (I really had it all kinds of wrong last time out) -- My last sail at Calville bay - was a blast but when the wind kicked up in the afternoon, I really would have been more comfortable if I could have reduced sail area. I'm trying to think what the difference was between the feel of the boat in Tempe, Arizona and my recent trip....160lbs of dog in the cabin (sort of like ballast) -

I'm also not happy with the block arrangement still but will get that worked out (i'm going to try the twist shackles to see if that helps the binding.) I have a spreader on the mast so, it isn't the stays causing me problems. I think the blocks twist on the shackles.

Using the motor was a last resort the other day - i was in this cove and the wind and waves (current toward shore) were on my nerves....i powered out a little and then used the sails. I was becalmed a couple of times on that trip and really enjoyed the serenity. The wind was mostly manageable - the only really annoying moment was the big wake by the cruiser that blasted past me only 20 ft or so away. :roll: It has since been unpleasantly cold here - that is cold for las vegas.

But, the goal is to be sailing again in early March (weather permitting). I'm going to give the wheel another go - but if it breaks again...i am switching to a tiller and closing up the lazarrette.

a.

a.

[Tim Diebert]

From the foot to first reef 22" .... 44" to the second.

Lay out the reef pendant holes so they are about an inch above the line between tack and clew reef points. That way the gathered and tied 'in between' material is neat and tidy.

Hope that helps. Have fun.

[adla]

Tim -

Yes, that helps tremendously, especially the tip about sewing them an inch higher to account for gathering. May I ask a couple more questions...about how big would you make the triangle pieces that reinforce the reef points and would you have one on both sides of the sail? And is three pieces for the tack and clew probably ok...and do you have a suggestions for grommet size. Your help is much appreciated.

Adla

[Dave R1]

Adla, I just thought I'd relay a couple of things I came across in The Sailmaker's Apprentice related to reef points.

"On boomed sails with a fixed foot [as opposed to loose-footed] the corner rings must be positioned above the straight-lined reef row so that they take the primary strain. A good guide is to start and end the row of eyelets a ring's diameter below the corner ring. If the rings are of different sizes, use the larger measurement of the two."

"Quite simply, the reef row on a boomed sail with a fixed foot can be perfectly straight, the idea being that in heavy winds you want a flat sail anyway..."

Regarding reef point patches shown in the Apprentice are either diamonds or squares with a point up. For a diamond-shaped patch the author shows 3" between parallel sides; for squares 2" is the given dimension. A patch is sewn on each side of the sail. the cloth direction must match the direction of the sail.

The author prefers to sew a reef band instead of individual patches because this can more easily and quickly be done with a sewing machine.

He says, regarding the eyelets themselves, "Eyelets should be no farther than 2 feet apart, even on large boats. On sails of 100 square feet or less, I place them every 12 to 14 inches. Try to have a measurement and a spacing that avoids disproportionate gaps at the forward and after ends of the reef row"

Hope that gives some guidance.