Looking for CS 17/20 sailing tips

[Richard Whitney CS#70]

I thought with some experience building up it might be useful to ask for some tips and tricks from those of you that have been playing around with how to get the best out of these boats with the cat ketch rig.

For example Graham pointed out from some photos that I am sitting to far aft going to windward.

Although I am 'just cruising' there are some others that I sail with who test our boats against each other. Any useful tips to help me defend the honor of the Core Sound boats would be appreciated.

eg. maximum degree of sheeting in going up wind (angle of sail relative to centre line.

How 'full' or 'flat' to keep the sail. (I have been keeping the tension on the snotter pretty tight - therefore pretty flat)

etc.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

Richard,

I cannot give you specifics yet, as my CS is not in the water. But from past experience, having a GPS helps as you try various tweeks of the sail shape and weight distribution.

I wonder what Graham would say about Bolger's comments on the rig. In his 103 sailing rigs he says..."The drawback is that the mizzen stands in the flow of the air that has been diverted by the main sail, so it's always pinched when the boat is close hauled, and gives less power than it should for its area and height. The distance and angle of the mainsail relative to the mizzen aren't good for smoothing the lee-side flow on the mizzen, though there's some benefit: the action of the mainsail's flow does reduce the heeling effect of the mizzen. The usual final result is that a cat-ketch is the least powerful rig for its area and heeling effect, for windward work, of all the common rigs".

[Richard Whitney CS#70]

Joe

I was able to use 'safety' to justify the cost of converting my sails and mast to a track system, and for upgrading from a 2hp to 4hp outboard.

Now to get a GPS - maybe to shift bays at midnight in the pitch black when the wind shifts and the anchor is dragging. Or to give an accurate fix to the coast guard. I certainly can not ask for access to the family bank account so I an check if I am going 1/2 knot fast when I tweek the outhaul. (I will have to spend some time strategising.

[Designer]

The mizzen has to work in the backwash of the mainsail on a cat ketch just as the mainsail has to work in the backwash of the genoa on a sloop.

When designing the size of any rig you compensate for the effective sail area so that you get a given angle of heel for a given wind strength. If you choose a low wind strength for that angle of heel, you sail better in light air but you are reefing all of the time and if you choose a high wind strength you are under powered most of the time. This means that the actual sail area of different rigs is irrelevant unless there is a sail area police. What is more important is the whole rig/ hull package.

I can't stand a boat that does not sail very well to windward and I am very satisfied with the cat ketch's weatherliness. I suspect that we might give up a tiny percentage to windward but we sure get it back when reaching and running not to mention better handling. I still look back fondly on the last Great Race that I sailed in Ketchup where we smoked a Flying Scott to windward in 20 knots of wind.

[Designer]

The best way to tweak and tune a rig is when sailing alongside another boat, it quickly becomes obvious if you are moving ahead or astern.

When going upwind in average conditions I like to trim the mainsail clew so that it is about 20 inches to leeward of the mizzen mast and the mizzen is sheeted in so that the mizzen clew is about 10 to 15 inches off of the centerline. The snotter is tightened so that the sail camber is about 10% of the draft. The snotter should be adjusted vertically on the mast so that there is a slight twist in the sail. In light air I ease the sails out slightly and trim the boat down by the bow and heel to leeward.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

Richard,

I dont know if you get much fog in your area...but here its common. A GPS costs around a hundred bucks USD. They are worth their weight in gold around here!

We sail a lot in areas with heavy current and at times low wind. You can have your boat pointed in the desired direction...but only a GPS will tell you the course made good (If you have no near reference points, you cant tell what direction you are going). Sometimes you are pointed north and the GPS tells you that south is your actual course. Sometimes in races the best strategy is to throw out an anchor and wait for wind...you make more headway.

Thanks Graham for the education on the rig. I just wondered how much of Bolgers thought on the rig were "textbook" and how much was from actual experience. It is too bad that sailboats have been so heavily infuenced by handicapping and the sloop rig, in the past 100 years.

[Brent]

Richard,

I happen to have a GPS, and dont really care to use it as a navigation tool. Seems it eats batteries, and usually needs feeding at the least convenient time. But I dont have to deal with the fog Joes is talking about. Joe is right about the GPS as a tool for teaching one about sail trim. It gives quick feedback about subtle changes. Might be worth borrowing one for an afternoon just to play with trimming out the boat.

When heading into the wind I usually run the main snotter a little looser (more curve in the main) than the mizzen. Seems the mizzen needs a flatter profile when dealing with the apparent wind off of the main.

I watch the trailing edge of my sails closely. The back section of sail should be pointing straight astern and in parrallel to the boats course. This is where Graham refers to keeping the sprit end no closer than about 20" from centerline. (I had to unlearn some of my sloop trimming habits to get the most out of the cat ketch.) With the boat trimmed this way try tweaking the snotter a little. You will probably feel the difference before the GPS confirms the speed change. On my boat a little snotter trim makes a big difference in total boat speed. Both snotters are in easy reach of the helm station, and get frequent attention.

When approaching a dock, I sometimes loosen the snooters completely when on final approach. It seems this depowers the boat much faster than letting out mainsheet. Allows for some daring high speed approaches.

Graham, could you comment on your technique for coming through a tack and then quickly powering the boat on the opposite tack?

[JeffM]

I, also, appreciate Graham's tips. Thanks, Graham!

[Rob Blackburn]

I have some random comments to the questions...

1.sitting position. It seems to me that the 20 footer is big enough not to be too stressed by sitting position of one or two people. If you look at the boat from the side the stern is often out of the water due to the shape of the hull and this reduces your drag anyway. Sitting up on the gunwhale half way up and sailing like a laser is sort of hard work. It seems to me that you are better to reduce sail or add weight at this point..

2. Going to weather. I tend to sail with the main powered up as described by GB etc and use the mizzen to balance the rig/tiller. If you find a load on the tiller in your hand it is usually because you have too much mizzen sheet tension. Crack it off a bit, the boat drives better as there is less torqueing of the boat around the centreboard and thus no angle of attack on the rudder blade slowing you down. Sure the mizzen does not set perfectly to give a balanced helm hard on the weather as Bolger suggests but it is not creating appreciable drag either I dont' think.

3. I have spent time fooling around with the gps and the compass calculating tacking angles and velocity made good stuff and at the end of the day it seems to me that if you ease the sheets to give you a 50deg angle to the true wind then you track across the ground faster with less heel and with less aggravation than if you crank it on and twang up the rig. You sail at a lower angle but your speed over the ground upwind ie towards the imaginary top mark on the course is as good or better than if you pinch up sitting on the rail.

4. I think you lose sight of what this boat is about if you try to out point some sort of racing/development class of boat with a carbon mast, kevlar sails, blade jib, long lean high aspect dagger board etc.. To my mind the speed of the boat is one around the whole course and that includes from the time you pull up at the ramp to the time you get home. If you have to stuff around for hours rigging/unrigging, the CS 20 is down the river and round the corner before you get started.

Anyone reading this recurring discussion on the cat ketch should go for a sail on one and look at it objectively. It is too easy to get too narrow at times I reckon.

Off to walk the dog before he wakes the neighbours whinging.

Rob

[Designer]

I agree pretty much with what Rob said, especially keeping the spirit of the design in mind. While we can't be competitive with the carbon fiber Grand Prix set we should easily be able to hold our own with more affordable boats. The best thing about racing is that it teaches us how to sail our boats better and sailing a boat well is always is always a pleasurable experience.

While the CS 20 is not as sensitive to trim as her smaller sisters I am always careful about weight trim while sailing. This was really brought home to me once when running downwind wing and wing in two Bay River Skiffs. The other boat was being sailed by a good friend who was courting a new lady. We started to run away from them and not wanting to challenge his manliness while he had his mind on other things I did my best to slow my boat down. Carla finally suggested that we move our ourselves aft and in no time they caught us and passed us. We moved ourslves forward and caught and passed them again and after a few tries we were able to use our weight as a throttle.

[Tom Lathrop]

Graham, are you picking on Jim again? By the way, I was back in Bonner Bay again yesterday.

Having sailed a Bay River Skiff in company with other, presumably faster boats, I think the positive attributes of a cat ketch far outweigh any, often negligable, speed advantages of the sloop rig. For the general use that most of these boats are intended, there is just no better rig.

[Brent]

I didn't build the Core Sound to have a racing boat. I have always thought of my boat as intended for cruising not racing. BUT...

I was at the local racing club the other day where a couple of Hunter skippers were talking about getting chased down by this wierd double masted sharpie looking boat the previous weekend. For three miles they were trying to point faster, but this boat kept closing on them and eventually passed. I kept my mouth shut, but then my buddy ratted me out as the skipper of that very mystery boat.

FWIW, In October my CS20 ran a 25 mile race in a mixed fleet of local racer/cruisers and hard core racing dinghies. We did not finish last. :wink:

I have a boat load of stories like this. During the months of building I had plenty of time to worry over how well the boat would perform. Ha!

[tom151]

I didn't build the Core Sound to have a racing boat.  I have always thought of my boat as intended for cruising not racing.  BUT...

...a couple of Hunter skippers were talking about getting chased down by this wierd double masted sharpie looking boat the previous weekend.  For three miles they were trying to point faster, but this boat kept closing on them and eventually passed...

FWIW,  In October my CS20 ran a 25 mile race in a mixed fleet of local racer/cruisers and hard core racing dinghies.  We did not finish last. :wink:

Brent,

Is your boat the one with the "plus-sized" sail plan?

If not - was it built to plans -and- does it have sail tracks?

Masts able to rotate?

Thanks a lot,

TomH

[Brent]

She be carryin' full batten sails on sail tracks with just a bit more in the leech that thare plans suggest.  The mast do rotate as they please, and the snotters are run back to the helm.