CS20 #65

[JeffM]

Got home last night from the family vacation. I'm proud to say I unloaded the car and got the kids into bed BEFORE I opened the envelope that had been waiting for me. I was up until the small hours puzzling over the lists, drawings and unfamiliar terms. I THINK I can handle this boat-building stuff -- with a lot of help from Graham, Carla and you all! I'll appreciate all the advice I can get -- especially from other novice boat-builders who have already recovered from the mistakes I haven't made yet! (I expect the professionals long ago learned from their mistakes and have forgotten them.)

I feel like a little kid on Christmas Eve -- can't wait to get my materials and get going! My plywood arrives Friday, epoxy about the same time. Right now I'm cleaning out the garage, looking at tools, and wondering why my local home store stocks little large lumber except white pine.

[Frank Hagan]

Hey, Jeff ... welcome to the "magnificent obsession". When you're talking to your friends, and their eyes start to glaze over, remember you can always come here and we'll all be eager to talk about building boats! (Not that THAT has ever happened to me!)

Look in the yellow pages under "Lumber" for a "Hardwood" store. They will have good supplies of white oak, poplar, cherry, douglas fir, ash, etc. I got mixed reactions when I told them I was building a boat; one dealer threw his head back and laughed, and said I'd never finish. I was tempted to send him a picture of the launch and the receipts from his competitor, but I'm not that mean!

The competitor was exactly the opposite ... he was fascinated that I was building a boat. I guess he was tired of talking to guys building the latest project out of Popular Woodworking Magazine. I think I funded his kid's college fund!

These small, independently owned companies have customer service standards all over the map, but at least you get honest reactions. And they will help you find what you need locally. I highly recommend them over Lowes and Home Depot's "special order desk" (where you can also get hardwood, but at a higher cost).

[Guest]

Welcome to our little world of nuts. I have cs 20 cut out, but found out that I needed a small break from glassing and took on a smaller solid wood project before the winter building season, to finish it. Take some time to read through some of the previous posts here, while you read through the plans. This will help you understand some of the highly detailed writings that are included from B&B Designs. Heck, you are up in an area of great choices of wood and materials.

[Frank Hagan]

IIRC Maine Coast Lumber delivers down your way.

Might give people in Washington State a fit' date=' but Maine Coast sells #1 VCG fir with tight ring patterns for about 2.60 a bd ft.

I got all of my dimension lumber form Maine Coast. White Oak and Ash is under $3.00 bd ft too.[/quote']

Ouch! I pay $7 a board foot for white oak. Heck, I pay $4 - $6 a board foot for red oak.

[Brent]

Jeff,

Congratulations and Welcome! I have CS20 #33, which was a very rewarding challenge to build, and a delight to sail. I had to stare at that pile of plywood for about 6 weeks before I got nerve enough to break out the saw, but once I crossed that point I found the shop time addictive. Heres to wishing you a great build experience. If there is anything I or any other forum member can do for you let us know.

---Brent

[JeffM]

Thanks for the encouragement and advice!

Now, as a teacher I've always told my students that the only stupid question was the one they were afraid to ask. Of course, I was usually the one answering, not the one asking. So here goes:

(1a) The sides are measured and cut ENTIRELY from 1/4 inch ply, so ONLY the bottom panels are combined 3/8 inch and 1/4 inch. Am I reading the plans right? (1b) And since the 3/8" portions of each panel only total 13'8", I need to cut one 3/8 sheet in half to supply the partial sheet for both bottom panels, right? (1c) And does it make the best sense to cut both side panels from one hunk of (butted) ply?

(2) When I match my bottom panels, does it matter whether the uneven side of my 3/8-to-1/4 butt joints are inside or outside? (If it matters at all, I expect they ought to be hidden inside.)

(3) For the wood technologists out there: how does the white pine we have in abundance around here compare in strength and weight to the spruce and fir Graham mentions as appropriate for most of the solid wood? For me this is partly an environmental question: one of the lumber companies I checked with mentions that their fir is "old growth" -- the cutting of old growth forest is a sin in my book.

Whew! That's probably enough for now!

Jeff Michals-Brown

[Frank Hagan]

Hi Jeff ... I can't speak to the specific plans questions, but for the wood questions, I can give you my opinions. Free! (and usually worth what you pay!)

First, "white pine" is different in different parts of the country. In the west, it is a relatively soft wood that is prone to decay if in a moist environment, and not suitable for use in a boat. In some parts of the country, there is Hard Pine, Hard White Pine, or Red Pine that is a harder wood and can be used. Southern Yellow Pine is a common boat building material in the southeast.

Most of the douglas fir lumber, plentiful in the west, is "new growth", with wider rings. Any douglas fir with close growth rings will be called "old growth" by the folks selling it, but that doesn't mean its extremely rare and endangered. The forests in the west are old compared to the rest of the country; the forests along the east are barely 200 years old, as the timber was almost completely harvested by the English and French. Finding an "old growth" douglas fir is not as rare as finding old growth elsewhere. But there are alternatives.

One site with some good information on boat building woods is the http://www.glen-l.com website. You have to click through to the wood database. They list a dozen or so woods, with the relative weights and decay resistance.

I used to have a link to the US Forestry Service's wood encylopedia, but I've lost it. It is a pretty definative guide to the topic (although not specifically geared toward boatbuilding.) Maybe someone else here has the link!

[Scott Dufour]

There's a pretty knowlegeable discussion about the "white pine" issue on the wooden boat forum. http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008233

The concensus seems to be to avoid it due to the fact that "white pine" doesn't mean necessarity Pinus strobus (Eastern White Pine) That species was used in the early years my the British for making masts, but that's it. "White pine" now at the lumber yard can mean almost any local softwood - most of which are low in rot resistance and strength. I wouldn't use it.

I put the smooth side of the butt joint on the outside of the boat where the lines need to be more continuous. On the inside, any deviation from the perfect line are hidden under the seats, stringers, and centerboard trunk on the CS17.

I don't know about the CS20, but the cutting pattern on Graham's plans for the 17 were very clear. I did have to rip a couple of pieces to make sure when it came to cutting, I was cutting mirror images at the same time. Be very careful and think it out fully - I came close to cutting the wrong piece the wrong way several times.

[Brent]

Jeff

You are reading the plans correctly. One of those 3/8" panel will be cut in half. Set up the butt joint so that the flush side is on outside of the hull. This is one of many things you will be doing to keep the outside of the hull smooth and fair for best performance of your boat.

Note that commonly these plywoods have differences in wood color from one side to the next. If your boat will end up with bright (epoxied but unpainted) surfaces you will want set up the butt joints so that the plywood panel colors match.

---Brent

[mustangermatt]

When I was experimenting with frame spacing for my seats (doug fir marine 3 ply on tops = less longitudinal rigidity than 5 ply okoume, thus a few extra frames) I played around with Hemlock (equivalent of dept store white pine from the PNW), Doug Fir, Western Red Cedar, and Poplar for the frames.

Only the Poplar and Doug Fir where rigid enough to really add anything to the seat stiffness. I went with doug fir for the lighter weight and used poplar bright finished where it shows (laminated deck frame in cockpit etc).

I have used some Hemlock in my boat for things like the hatch lid frames where strength is not a real concern, and these parts are well sealed with epoxy paint over the epoxy coating. Time will tell if this was a bad idea or not, but clear doug fir is hard to find sometimes :-(

[JeffM]

Thanks, all! Since the plans imply it, I figure I'll cut the sides from different ply panels rather than ripping them and stacking the halves. I think I've got a local source of spruce, so I plan to go with that for most of the dimensional lumber.

Graham seems to be out of town, so I'm banking on you other Core Sound builders out there: on the Hull Cutout Sheet, on the side panel drawing, the bow appears to go a few inches beyond the last station. But there's no number telling how far. Also, I don't know what the dotted line on the bow and "add 3/16" means. Is it adding that much convex curve to the bow?

As soon as I get a long enough piece of small lumber (seat stringer), I want to begin work. At the moment I don't have anything I'd trust to draw the curves with. With a little luck I'll have a few sunny days for butt-joining the sides and bottom: they're long enough to poke out my garage door. I'm trying to avoid putting a shelter on to extend the garage until it begins to cool off.

[Tim]

Jeff,

I have the CS 17 plans and it is noted at the bow "cut outside the line (1/4") so that after the bottom and sides are taped and before folding you can fair the forefoot (bottom panel) into the bow for a sweet profile". I think if you look again you may find an overall dimension length that you can use to determine the tip of the bow dimension past the last station.

Tim

[JeffM]

Thanks, Tim. I have a similar instruction, though without a specific measurement. Maybe that 3/16 refers to that. I can't find any other dimensions, overall or otherwise, for working out the length past that last station.

[JeffM]

OK, I took Frank's advice and tried to get lumber locally. Boulter Plywood is less than an hour away and stocks sitka spruce. But it turns out to be completely unfinished, and they have no thickness planer. I haven't even a woodworking tools. Even as I contemplated mind-numbing hours with a block plane, so itchy was I to get my hands on lumber that I was only saved by having forgotten my wallet. Once home, I came to my senses. (Sometimes stupid is smart.)

Now I am taking Ray's advice, and talking to Maine Coast Lumber. They sound like reasonable folk to me.

Jeff

[Frank Hagan]

Better to deal with a place that can mill it for you if your tool budget is limited. A thickness planer and jointer would set you back too much if this is just a one-project thing.

[JeffM]

Ok, finally started work. Didn't get far. Bone-headed mistake #1: cut a 3/8 ply in half before realizing that I'd need the whole thing uncut for the bottom. Now I'm faced with either butting it back together, or buying (ouch!) another. If I butt it, should it go under the stern, or amidships? Thoughts?

PS: My lesson for the day: Don't mix the epoxy until EVERY little thing is ready, at hand, and in position!

[Scott Dufour]

Supposedly if you butt join using two layers of tape on each side and no scarf, the wood will break before the joint does. Given that you should be able to stick it all back together and proceed a little wiser.

I try to make no cuts until the measurements have been on the wood for at least a day. It gives me time to think about how the next cut is going to screw everything up after it's made. :oops:

[JeffM]

Thanks, Scott. Graham, just back from a wedding, agrees. I was also able to straighten out with him my misunderstanding of that detail in the bow section of the sides. Progress! And I haven't made a really bone-headed mistake (that I've found yet) in an entire day! Now the bottle neck is the shipping schedule for Maine Coast Lumber (thanks, all!). I may actually have to eat, sleep, and get reaquainted with my kids while I wait for lumber so I can do the seat stringers.

Jeff

[mustangermatt]

Just so you feel better, I had to tack 4 inches back onto each side piece at the stern, and those measurements were on the wood for more than a day :oops:

Scott is right though. Since then I spend much more time thinking about the next step than actually doing it. I make alot more progress that way :-)

[JeffM]

CS20#65 is now rather graceful, but completely flat, slabs of plywood on my garage floor. But that hasn't stopped me from sailing her many miles with my wife & 3 boys, anchoring to camp near shore, and so on. Which leads to a whole bunch of questions. At risk of getting WAY ahead of myself:

(1) I'm thinking of eliminating the hatches on the aft deck and seats in favor of simpler access through the bulkheads (basically just holes). Any thoughts or experience out there?

(2) what are the pluses and minuses of the 3 different sail attachments (sleeve, laced & track)? The sleeved look easiest, but how do you reef them? Would it matter if I wanted to use the sprits to support a tent?

(3) I'd like to avoid motoring in favor of rowing. (No experience -- maybe just romaticism.) But I'd like to be able to do it without moving the mizzen. Has anyone actually tried it with oarlocks moved aft, and a removable seat, etc?

Thanks, everyone! I follow nearly all your threads, whether or not I respond. This is a real community, and very inspiring!