i need help

[adla]

my neighbors were so kind and helped me roll the boat back over...and all afternoon i have been like a little piggy in poop...(pardon the expression) sitting in the cockpit acting like i am in a boat...hey, it is a boat!

i need a little input if it isn't too much to ask...when i flipped the boat over to do the bottom , hull and keel...i had not yet done the seats, lazzerette (sp), cabin box...etc...

i have the seat stringers marked and will epoxy those in instead of screw...but i have steering questions....i avoided the lazzerrette front because i wasn't sure since the homemade wheel is in it's 4th attempt (it looks decent) that i was going the traditional route...if i do use the steering wheel i know that (maybe Barry) had a 2x4 block on either side with a through bolt etc. arrangement that would be easier to assemble while the area is still open...or should i go with the tiller instead...i lIke the look of the tiller..but then is my rudder box no good????

my best case scenario is set the boat up for the regular steering and then modify it for the tiller...if i don't like the tiller then i can always go with the original steering plan without cutting access points...

any and all thoughts are NEEEEEDED and welcomed..

a.

[tdrown]

The rudder box would only need to be slightly modified to go with a tiller for steering. If you like the looks better of either one then by all means you should go that route. I've found that setting up the steering is to say the least tricky and uncomfortable to maneuver in (particularly since my lazurite hatch is cut a bit smaller than the plans). But there is a solution! Cut holes for hatches on the deck and it will probably be infinitely easier to work with. I believe the Vacationer plans actually place the hatch on the deck. Once the steering is set up and fully tightened (the line will streach if it has not already been streached before) then I am told (by the plans) that it will not need any touching for many years. If you want the wheel, you certainly should at least try it, if you don't then the tiller is a fairly simple modification.

[adla]

right...if it is a case of preference...i used to like the wheel but think the tiller looks better...i have seen some really nice tiller set ups and i don't need any counter intuitive assemblies (wheel) since i don't know how to sail...

if someone has a good tiller modification they are willing to share it would be much appreciated.

a.

[capt jake]

I would post a picture, but I am sure that Imagestation will play bad boo boo on it. With that said, i will try this lnk. Search near the end of the album and see if you can glean anyting from it.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291601753

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid102/p448cf6b15de8f98ebb0e0e41bdbbfb47/f9b6bd1d.jpg

[adla]

hrm....that is where your boat has been.....i like the tiller...what did you use on it...leather? twine?

do tell..

a.

[jakehaynie]

Adla, my $.02. I think the wheel looks good on these boats, real salty. But I don't like the idea of a wheel that I have to reach behind me to turn. Personally, I'm a wheel in front of me kind of guy and from what I've read on these boards there is a tedious adjustment period before they work well. I prefer the tiller, quicker to come about, more positive, more feedback. As I've watched you build your weekender I am confident you will have no problem making the mods to your rudder box.

Regards,

Jake

[Kudzu]

I was trying to post this when my ISP took it's morning sabbatical.

Another for what it worth answer. The wheel looks really awkward to me. Assuming you going to be sailing in small lakes and not setting a course for long distances I to would say look at the tiller very closely. Sounds like a lot less hassle. It all about sailing, not working on the boat

[capt jake]

what did you use on it...leather? twine?

That is some of the synthetis tarred marlin. Just playing around with it one day, I liked it so it stayed.

[adla]

i found the DYI laminated tiller directions...also, some good pics thanks Cap'n jake, Frank's-Aslan, Bob Butler...etc...those builders have good shots of the tiller modification.

:shock: now i am going to try to build a tiller..and skip the wheel....

a.

[Phil Gowans]

I hesitate to post this because my opinions are just that - opinions. I really believe in the principle - It's your boat and you make it what you want. That's part of the beauty of what we are doing here. We are building our own boat.

Wheel or tiller! This subject comes up periodically and you can find lots of discussion about it. I've some strong feelings about some of the issues. And even though I usually keep quite about such things, I've decided to express some of them. Please feel free to disregard them all as my opinions. At least my opinions are based on some experience with a weekender with a wheel.

The weekender is modeled after the friendship sloop. As you can see in the attached photo the Stevensons did a pretty decent job of making a minatureized version of one. I doubt you will ever find a friendship sloop with a simple tiller. It just doesn't seem to fit with the design. I can conceive of an extension to the steering post that would come through the center of the cockpit and a tiller attached as on some boats. But, I can't see it ever coming over the transom and into the cockpit that way.

The Stevensons had to make a lot of subtle compromises to capture the essence of a friendship sloop in such a small boat. The fact that you have a lazerette and taff rail imply that you have a wheel. To build an extension on to the rudder box and put a tiller over the lazerette into the cabin is possible, but to my eye it seems to scream incongruity. It looks like a hodge-podge addition and appears out of place. It would seem better to somehow get rid of the lazerette and extend the tiller directly into the cockpit. The high transom is also in the way, but that could be modified.

It seems that the wheel is an integral part of the design. I have not seen any solutions to exchanging the wheel for a tiller that appear to work with the existing design. To remove the wheel turns the boat into something other than what it was designed.

The argument is often stated that a wheel takes less room in the cockpit than a tiller. I think this is true. A workable tiller would require quite a lot of room in an already small cockpit. This mind you comes from someone that has only pictures for the experience. The wheel does require that the aft of the cockpit be keep clear of items that might hamper the wheel and you cannot practically sit with your back on the lazerette. However, I do like sitting with my back on the cabin wall and steering the wheel with my foot.

To those who are used to driving a car, a wheel to the aft of the cabin appears unusual, but it is not that unusual in a boat. You don't need to see the wheel to know how to steer with it. After all you can use the tiller with it behind you.

Some just prefer a tiller and can't imagine using a wheel. I can sympathize with this, since I had never sailed without a tiller before. A tiller seems like the natural way to go especially if that is what you are used to. I only had a few minutes of confusion in getting used to the wheel. Remember this is a small boat and you get an immediate reaction when you turn the wheel - if you turn it the wrong way, you are not really committed to it, a slight effort can quickly fix that. I really like the wheel for steering now. It's always where you expect it, mostly accessible anywhere in the cockpit, very responsive, gives good manual feedback, and is fairly much out of the way. It also feels good in the hand and I like the way it looks. Almost everybody that sees it is almost immediately drawn to it and comments "It even has a wheel" or "Oh, look it has a wheel".

Some have heard that it a wheel takes a lot of adjustments. I have not found that to be the case. Mine has not been adjusted for 3 years. I have my own design for steering with a turnbuckle inside the lazerette that works well. I do admit to some problems with starting with and experiment of using wire rope instead of rope. For some reason still not clear to me the wire rope failed quite quickly. The biggest concession I will make is that working inside the lazerette is a real pain. But once you get it working it should stay working. If want a wheel you should start with a wheel. It's easier to setup the steering before you enclose the boat.

I hope this doesn't upset anyone that has modified his or her weekender to have a tiller. You obviously did it because you wanted it that way and then it is the right way because that is the way you want it. To that I say Here, Here and I hope it is working out well. I'm glad I have a wheel and wouldn't want it any other way.

[Johannah]

It would be a blessing if one of you handy engineering types could figure out to how to indicate the rudder angle when using the wheel. Like Ray, I miss the direct feel of contact with the rudder through the tiller. We keep stalling the rudder since I have no sense of where it is. I agree that the wheel is more efficient for use of space but have not learned to love it. We need to redo the steering mechanism and reinforce the wheel this Spring.

Phil, in your drawing of steering mods, how are your blocks attached to the sides? Approx. where?

[Steve Day]

I'm not sure this will apply to your boats, but I think it will. On my Beneteau (yes, I own a production boat) I have put a Turk's Head on the spoke of the wheel that is straight up when the rudder is amidships. I can easily feel the position of the rudder without having to look at the wheel and it looks kind of "salty."

Since the wheel on that boat goes around about 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 times from lock-to-lock, I have a pretty good idea how much rudder angle I am carrying as I sail. If it gets to be too much, I start adjusting things to get the boat in balance.

You might give it a try. It should work even if the wheel goes around multiple times from lock-to-lock.

Steve

[Phil Gowans]

I have put a white dot on the king post of the wheel. As you can see it is almost straight up in this photo. When the boat is sailing along at a constant course the boat is fairly well balanced and the post is mostly straight up. My wheel turns about 1/2 turn left or 1/2 turn right. When the white dot is down I know I have the rudder fully turned. When the white dot is at 3 o'clock it is half way, etc. I don't need to look at the rudder to know where it is. The wheel tells me that.

You might also notice the short rope with an eye splice on either end holding the wheel in place. I use this to hold the wheel when I need a little breather, or have to do something besides hold the wheel. It works fairly well since I can easily put it over any spoke. That's not as easily done with a tiller. I was doing it here so that I could take a picture.

Johanna, I decided to use the same geometry as the Stevensons. I just don't have the adjustment outside of the lazerette. I think this makes the system simpler than the complicated method that most have used with the turnbuckle on the floor and extra blocks. The blocks are positioned where Stevensons are - over the bottom rub rail. I put in a fairlead that holds the block. It is bolted through the rub rail with two flat head machine screws so that nothing is sticking out beyond the rub rail to catch on anything.

[adla]

gosh Phil...u know i really admire your boat and so your opinions are valued.

i have bigger problems than just steering at this point...the bottom stringer that i put in for the lazzerrett is about 4 whole inches to far away from the transom...so it had to be cut out and chisled off...i have a new stringer cut and am about to put it all together so nOW is the time to decide whether i set it up for the wheel.

part of my problem is that i am a concept builder...if i understand the concept and can visualize something then i can do it whether i have good directions or not...i have no concept of the steering....the pictures help a great deal...i am going to make lunch and sit in the cabin and think...and look at the picures and think....

i am determined to get the lazzarrette deck in and the seats started (i have them cut)...by the end of the day <---- i am very stubborn!

a.

[Phil Gowans]

adla, I didn't see too many saying anything in behalf of the wheel, so I thought I would. As you can tell, I really like mine. Some have not liked theirs and have switched, but I haven't seen anybody switch from the tiller to the wheel.

I must say I am very impressed with your work. What you have done, you have done very well and what amazes me is how fast you are. I did my boat before any forums existed, and there were only a few pictures. That's why I put together my web site. I spent a lot of time sitting in my moaning chair and just thinking about what I wanted and how I wanted to do it. It became an obsession. I don't think I thought about much else. I can see you are one of those obsessive / compulsive types.

You're going to have a great boat, whatever you decide on this. The wheel is really pretty simple. It's one of those things people either love or hate. If you don't like it, do something you do like. Even thought I will probably not like it, BUT who cares. I hope you're doing this to please the person who matters most - #1. Just thought I'd slow you down with something else to think about. At least for a few seconds.

[Johannah]

Thanks, Phil and to Adla for asking all the really good questions! I have some new pictures to share with John and to meditate upon. This looks like a not-so-dificult mod. I have been looking all winter at the diagrams from one of the NW builders but was not sold.

This group is like having a consulting firm always at hand. 8)

Phil, a few more pesty questions: what size are your blocks in the pic; they look quite small? Ditto for the size of turnbuckle? We need to replace ours anyway because it is pot metal and not doing too well.

[Steve Downs]

I love my wheel. That's the part that sold me on the Weekender design over 20 years ago. I was looking for a traditional look to build a "pirate ship" and that's the first thing I noticed. It was the first thing I made way back then. I took great pains to make it the way wheels are traditionally made. I turned the spindals on my lathe. They're not perfect but it certainly gives it a hand-made but very tradtional look. I spent some time in New England and studied wheels so I knew what I was doing. The only thing non-traditional about it is the wood, Doug fir, and the use of phillips head brass screws which I will correct later on. I'm too busy building right now to get sidetracked on that problem. I've never sailed with a wheel before, all my sailing experience has been with a tiller but I'm looking forward to the experience. Good luck Adla, I know you'll make the decision that will work best for you.

[Phil Gowans]

The blocks are harken micro 224s. They are quite small. I wanted to use blocks that didn't need replacing. The're only about $7 each anyway. I think the small size was one of the problems with the wire rope, but they were recommended for wire use.

I used low-streach (basically no streach) line and found some rope clamps. They work really great - don't slip and easy to set up.

I don't recall the size of the turnbuckle, but it is quite small too. (Translate cheaper). It is stainless and the barrel is only about 3/8 in dia. The whole thing is probably only 6-7 inches in length. Remember to use a piece wire to keep it from turning. I did have it fall apart once while sailing. That's always fun. :roll:

[Kudzu]

Just a thought here. But if you stretch the ropes (great idea there!) why not add an extra block and a spring to it as a tensioner then?

[capt jake]

With all of this discussion, I must admit that I really like to the look of the wheel as well. I was also drawn to the boat with the wehel being one of the factors.

When really thinking about using her; I was persuaded to go with a tiller.

Either way, it is still a very cool design.