Princess Sharpie 22 - Sprit vs Boom rigging

[Travis Votaw]

Graham, no, I haven't tried to over tighten the main sprit yet. I'm making a longer main sprit boom and when I get it finished, I'm going to use a three-part purchase :shock: on the snotter so I will be able to tighten it up more. Charlie made the spars to the specified length per plans, but I think the sail was cut slightly longer on the foot and the main sprit snotter tackle is "chock-a-block" now when tightened. I might possibly move the attachment down the mast a little bit, but it seems to work ok where it is now located, and I only need to do a little more work on the new sprit boom to get it finished. I may have to beef up the stainless loop on the mast also that the tackle attaches to.

Gary, thanks for catching the link problem. I should not have put it at the end of the sentence - it's all Frank's fault

George, I can shed a little light on your questions.

1. Re the engine well, I really like having the engine within the boat - easy to raise and lower, shift and throttle, etc. As previously discussed on this board, the bottom of the well does not need to be completely open to its full dimension, but could be shaped to fit the motor you would use. I'm using an 8hp Yamaha 2 stroke - considerably more than I need to get to hull speed and a little more ( it will push her to 8 mph wide open). No problem at all with smoke or fumes. It does get a little tricky manuevering in shallow water with the rudder all the way up, because I cannot turn the motor within the well. and with the rudder up, I don't get any water flow over the rudder, thus not steerage. No problem, as long as I remember and think ahead a little when approaching shallow water, the beach, etc.

2. Over all height above the trailer. I'm using an old converted motorboat trailer which I modified. Plenty strong, but the boat sits up high enough (straight axle and using 14" wheels) that I need to have a little more than two feet of water to launch her. With masts folded, the clearance is right at 8', higher than your average residential garage door, I believe. I can get an exact measurement next time I see the boat (It's at my daughter's home here in the country).

3. The pop-up cabin top feature might be handy on the P22., but would add some to the cost and complication of construction, I think. There is comfortable sitting headroom in the cabin, but not much more. No problem standing in the open main hatch, though and working around the after cabin area. I stand there when at anchor and cook out on the bridge deck with my camp stove.

I believe Graham has said that he would design a pop-up cabin top if someone wanted it, I dare say for a fee, of course Graham will have to answer for himself on this.

[Joe Nelson CS#35]

Snip>

3. Having many years of experience with a pop-up trailer and seeing the great pop-top on a Rhodes 22, I have often wondered why more small boats don't have them. People in small cabins would like to stand up just as much as people in yachts! (The Marine Concepts web-site shows a guy who pitched a tent over the forward cockpit of his Sea Pearl Tri 21 so he could stand up in his cabin.) I was happy to see that the PS26 offered a pop-top as an option and wondered if the PS22 had it as well.

Why not use a slot top? They require a lot less engineering and you could walk standing up through any cabin height. Just swing her open and walk through. I am making a slot top for my current power boat project, Tolman Standard Skiff-18'. The main reason for my slot top is to get quick access to the anchor well while anchor fishing in water where commercial traffic is common. Just run up, uncleat the rode and throw it in the water. Come back to the buoy and grab the rode with a boat hook...reconnect the rode to the cleat and you are right back in the same spot, catching fish again!

[Designer]

George, I can't take credit for the sharp eye, that was Garry.

[Charlie Jones]

Joe - Laura took that picture of Pilgrim from the bow of Tehani.

We were laid over pretty good that day. Travis had just shaken out the reefs, and we probably should have had one in. But Laura doesn't mind washing the windows in the least, so we didn't bother. The winds were dropping anyway.

Here's what Tehani looked like at about that same time

[motscg]

I must be getting senile - I had meant to say "Garry". Well, it starts with a "G" anyway

The comparision photos between Pilgrim and Tehani really tell the story of how flat the PS22 is.

Height on the trailer will be a consideration. I suspect that this can be overcome with a diffeent trailer and perhaps some other modifications.

Never thought of the slot idea, but to be fully useful, some type of overhead canvas covering would still be needed to take full advantage while overnighting.

[edt]

For a slot top you can use canvas. You can also make a hinged cover that opens flat to one side of the slot. This would make a more secure and drier alternative when it gets rough.

Ed

[motscg]

Thanks for the suggestion. I think at the end of the day I would want a pop-top that would give the cabin a more open, less claustrophobic feeling when overnighting or waiting out inclement weather.

[motscg]

Going back to the height of the Princess 22 on a trailer ... this is an important subject to me since I need to clear 6'11" to get a boat through the garage. Basically I'm trying to find a roomy, stable boat that will fit through the garage. If the only boats that fit are deemed too small (for my wants and needs), then I will abandon that idea, concede that I'm going to have to store the boat in a boatyard and then go with the largest practical boat for trailering of which there are plenty of choices.

Travis mentioned that his PILGRIM was 8 feet high on his converted motorboat trailer. Sounds like some of this height may be due to the trailer itself, but it still seems high for a sharpie that doesn't have a keel hanging underneath that would push it higher up. Are the hinged tabanacles also responsible the clearance problem?

[Travis Votaw]

You could gain a few inches (less than a foot) by using a dropped axle or a bent one on the trailer.

The shallow keel on the P22 probably extends no more than 5 to 6 inches below the V bottom of the boat.

The tabernacles have to be tall enough to hinge the masts so they lie just above the cabin top. I wouldn't want to shorten them any more than they are now. I might be a little off on the overall height of the folded masts above the ground - I'll check next time I go see the boat.

Is it possible to change out your garage doors for taller ones? Might be cheaper than paying for storage or buying or building some type of additional shelter.

[motscg]

Perhaps if I had thought of enlarging the doors BEFORE building an interior storage loft and BEFORE replacing the garage doors with new insulated doors and BEFORE residing it, that might have been a consideration. Timing is everything! \

Just out of curiousity, does anyone know if a Belhaven 19 will fit into a standard height garage?

[Travis Votaw]

I just measured the height of masts folded, located at the axle. It is 90 inches, or 7 1/2 feet.

The trailer frame (straight axle, 14 " rims) stands 19" tall from the top of the frame to the ground. There is 5" clearance between the top of the axle and the top of the frame.

The boat sits on her keel on a 2x12 running lengthwise down the centerline of the trailer, so I guess this makes her 69 1/2" tall from keel to folded masts, well under 6'. BUT :?: , can you figure a way to get a trailer under her and not top the 7' clearance needed to put her in the garage?

[PAR]

This isn't to say that Tehani isn't more tender then the PS 22, but the PS 22 is on a higher course, possably pinched or luffing for some reason, so of course she's more upright, the mainsail is stalled and not providing any drive.

Again this isn't to suggest the PS 22 is not stiff, but the photo indicates she's out of shape and not drawing well, for whatever reason.

[motscg]

Travis,

When I was at the Annapolis Boat Show last October, I looked at a Precision 18 (during the height of the nor'easter that was blowing through that day). The P18 is a sloop with a centerboard keel. It has an 18" draft with the board up and has a total height measurement of 65" to the cabin top. It was sitting on a trailer and I believe that the wheel rims on the trailer were 10". Total height to the cabin top with boat on trailer was 77". For this boat/trailer combo, the trailer was responsible for 12" of the total height.

So, adding 12" to your PS22 boat height measurement of 69.5", the total height would be 81.5" or 6'9.5" giving me a 1/2" clearance for getting through my garage. I can work with that. Perhaps if the cabin top was made a 1/2" lower, that would give me a full inch (this would make the desire for a pop-top a little greater). Worse case, I deflate the tires a bit!

[Norman Colter]

It won't be the cabin top, just to stay with the Princess. Your issue will be with the mast tabernacles. Travis's measurement, I believe, is from the top of the folded masts. They fold past each other over the top of the cabin. Hope you can work it out, it's a great boat, and lots of fun to build. So far. :wink:

Norm

[Travis Votaw]

As built, the folded masts clear the cabin top by about 4 1/2 ". I'm sure Charlie followed Graham's specs on the tabernacle heights, but seems like Charlie said he had squeezed out maybe an inch more headroom in the cabin . Just from looking at it, you might be able to lower the tabernacles by a couple of inches without any trouble, but I surely would NOT do it without getting Graham's approval, as this might impact the ability of the freestanding masts to stand free :shock:

[Charlie Jones]

Correct- The tabernacles are to spec, but the cabin top was raised 1 inch to give your knees an easier time of it- the settee height was also raised one inch for the same reason. Actually THAT'S why the cabin top was raised

The lines of the cabin top fore and aft were slightly arced upward also, for the same reason- slightly increased room. Graham noticed that in the first pics he saw.

[motscg]

Hmmm, if the tabernacle can be cut down an inch, all would be well, I think.

Alternately, I had a bit of an epiphany :idea: in the middle of the night. The Compac Sun Cat offers a "garage kit" that allows their tabernacle to be removed so that the boat can fit into the garage. Thinking along those lines I recalled previously seeing a modification of a Weekender somewhere in cyberspace where it seems that the builder made the tabernacle removable - it fit into a long vertical box (much the same way a hitch draw bar fits into its car mounted receiver). He added a boot on the tabernacle to prevent water from seeping down the "receiver". So, for out-of season storage, after the boat is pulled from the water and its sitting in my driveway, I would lift the tabernacle out to get the boat through the garage and into the backyard and then put it back again before securing it for the winter.

[Charlie Jones]

That's the standard design on the Weekender- The tabernacle on the Princess is glued hard to the keelson, to the king planks and the deck. I wouldn't try making that removable.

The Weekender is a stayed rig, the Princess is free standing - HUGE difference. I've built both.

Making it an inch or so shorter should not be a problem but I HIGHLY recommend you run that past Graham. He can probably give you exact figures on sizes.

[motscg]

One of my things that I have learned in the course of reading books and participating in good forums such as this one, is that design changes cannot be taken lightly - that seemly innocuous modifications can have unintended consequences. It seems that I may have found the right boat in the Princess Sharpie 22 and that there is a decent chance that some type of approved design change may help me get past the clearance hurdle. I am not quite ready to build it yet (or have it professionally built due to time constraints). I have to finish my current Caravelle 14 project. I will want to get some advice from PAR on converting the sloop sail plan on this boat to a high-aspect short-gaff rig so that I can get the shorter mast (I'll save that for a new post later).

b/t/w, Charlie, is that a Tilley Hat that you're wearing in your photo?

[Tom Lathrop]

Last year when I bottom painted my powerboat in the boathouse, I needed to remove the trailer to gain decent access. Not enough interior height to do that so I used the old trick of deflating the tires. Worked fine. You can gain a couple inches clearance that way.