1x12 Board Comes Apart

[Ken_StJohn]

I just took a 1x12 poplar board, 4-feet long, and cut off 12" from the end. The board was laminated together at the factory using two 4-foot long pieces to make the 12" width. The board de-laminated along the seam without any stress other than sawing off the 12" end. I have never had this happen in my lifetime of using this type of board for general construction - have you? I'm kind of glad it happened now before I had a lot of sweat and tears in the shaping but, is this just a fluke or is using this type of stock for the rudder not a good thing???

[Dave R1]

Ken, you should probably either glue up several 4" wide pieces yourself or, as I did use a solid, single piece of wood for the rudder. That stuff the big box stores sel that is laminated shouldn't be trusted iin this application.

If you glue it yourself you can be assured that it will be done with waterproof glue or epoxy.

It is a good thing you discovered this now instead of while you're in the middle of a lake.

[Ken_StJohn]

Hey Dave! Yeah, you're right but tough to find 12" boards here except pine. I thought about laminating them but I don't have a joiner planer. I do have a hardwood shop (closed weekends of course) but I doubt if I can get only three feet. Uggghh.

[Charlie Jones]

I agree completely with Ray- if you want a board ( rudder, CB or dagger board) that will last, and not warp, that's the way to do it.

Having said that, plywood laminated to the thickness you need works ok too- just not as strong.

[Dave R1]

Ray makes a good point about how to cut and glue up strips and it is less likely to warp that way. On the other hand my solid yellow poplar rudder has never warped so I don't believe it is a foregone conclusion that one would warp for you either.

As Charlie mentions, plywood laminated up can also make a good rudder. Just seal it and paint it.

By the way, do you have a router that will handle 1/2" shank router bits? If so, you can joint boards for gluing. Just get a 1/2" or slightly larger flush trim pattern bit. Clamp a straight edge to the wood and run the bit along it to make a straight edge.

[Ken_StJohn]

I originally went to Home Depot but, as luck would have it, they had that gate thingy across the aisles so they weren't accessable. We ended up going to Lowes. The boards were so closely matched in grain and color that I didn't realize they were edge glued until it split.

I will go up to HD tomorrow and see what their stock is. I have glued up butcher blocks before so I know that process. It just seemed like the straight, poplar board was a pretty easy way to go.

Like Dave says, glad this happened in the shop at this early stage. However, I was surprised that without any stress at all it split. Never had that happen with shelves, bookcases, and other stuff. I'm claiming factory defect when I take it back. It cost me $5 per foot for a worthless piece of firewood. Oh well, this stuff happens. I get my enjoyment from the process anyway and you have to look at this as part of the education!

[Ken_StJohn]

Dave: Yes I have a router that I could use and I think somewhere a jiggy atachment thingy for the table saw that I used one time to true up warped lumber. Good idea on the straight edge - you're becoming Mr. Router!

[Dave R1]

Ooh. Mr. Router? I'd better not tell my wife that.

Are you still building this evening? I'm doing daddy duty tonight but Ian's asleep so now I can get back to living the boat builder's life vicariously through you, Ken. Thanks.

Got anymore little tidbits I can think on this evening?

[Ken_StJohn]

Sorry, Dave, we were out to dinner late and I didn't check the Forum until this morning. BTW send me a couple snaps of the rubrail samples....

[Dave R1]

Ken, take a look at this link: http://www.barbourplastics.com/marine-prod-rubrails.htm You can download their product catalog. The profiles that were sent to me are 0818, 0817, 92202, and 828. My wife has the camera so I can't take any pictures of the samples.

I'll see if I can take some pictures of the samples taped onto the boat when we get back from the lake next week.

I also owe you some dimensions which I will try to get for you.

[Ken_StJohn]

Thanks, Dave, I'll have a look at them...

BTW-take a look at the bad vs good Resin Glue pix I just put up under the *ALERT* Watch for glue post....

k

[capt jake]

Somebody may have already said this, but I didn't see it. Why Poplar???? Poplar is not rot resistant at all! I would use Hemlock way before using Poplar. DF or Mahogany is a better choice.

[Dave R1]

Jake, I know yellow poplar is not supposed to be durable. I used it because I couldn't get anything else that was clear. I haven't had any problems with it at all. In fact a couple of weeks ago I sanded the paint off my rudder while doing a little minor repair work. The wood looks as good as it did when I first made the rudder. My Weekender's keel, seats and bow sprit as well as all the stringers and butt blocks are yellow poplar and nothing shows any issues.

Again, I'd have used DF (or SYP) if I could have gotten it at a reasonable price. I would have had to order it from someone and had it shipped. I got the yellow poplar cut to my cut list along with all the drops and rips for less than I could have bought knotty, twisty, wet construction lumber for.

By the way, the late Robb White built many boats from yellow poplar with great success.

[Greg Luckett]

Somebody may have already said this' date=' but I didn't see it. Why Poplar???? Poplar is not rot resistant at all! I would use Hemlock way before using Poplar. DF or Mahogany is a better choice.[/quote']

Even Red Oak is better. I was surprised that Poplar is being used for boat building at all. :shock:

[Greg Luckett]

Ken' date=' take a look at this link: http://www.barbourplastics.com/marine-prod-rubrails.htm You can download their product catalog. The profiles that were sent to me are 0818, 0817, 92202, and 828. My wife has the camera so I can't take any pictures of the samples.

I'll see if I can take some pictures of the samples taped onto the boat when we get back from the lake next week.

I also owe you some dimensions which I will try to get for you.[/quote']

Now this is a very handy link. Thanks Dave!

[Dave R1]

Greg, the bitts, stub tiller and cabin hatch slides are red oak. No problems with any of those parts either.

Glad you found the link useful.

I sent Barbour Plastics an e-mail asking about the possibility of getting some samples of a few profiles. I was expecting pieces about 2" long. They called me up to get details of the profiles I was interested in. The fellow I spoke to asked me if I wanted more samples so I took one more. When they came they were 18" long and included the rubber tube that snaps into the extrusion. The length will make it easier to see how they'll bend around the sheer.

[Andrew_Butchart]

Somebody may have already said this' date=' but I didn't see it. Why Poplar???? Poplar is not rot resistant at all! I would use Hemlock way before using Poplar. DF or Mahogany is a better choice.[/quote']

It might be tulip poplar - which is a much better wood.

For me - I've always used pine for rudders / daggerboards etc. and they've worked well. I can get 1 X 12 pine barnboards from my local lumber yard fairly cheap.

[Dave R1]

yellow poplar- Magnoliaceae Liriodendron tulipifera L.

I expect you're right. From what I can see there are other "poplars" This is from the Wikipedia

Classification

Populus section Populus - aspens and white poplar. Circumpolar subarctic and cool temperate, and mountains further south (white poplar warm temperate)

Populus tremula - Common Aspen, Trembling Aspen or Eurasian Aspen. Europe, northern Asia.

Populus tremuloides - Quaking Aspen or Trembling Aspen. North America.

Populus grandidentata - Bigtooth Aspen. Eastern North America.

Populus adenopoda - Chinese Aspen. Eastern Asia.

Populus sieboldii - Japanese Aspen. Eastern Asia.

Populus alba - White Poplar. Southern Europe to central Asia.

Populus x canescens (P. alba x P. tremula) - Grey Poplar

A poplar in autumn coloursPopulus section Aegiros - black poplars or cottonwoods. North America, Europe, western Asia; temperate

Populus nigra - Black Poplar. Europe.

Populus x canadensis (P. nigra x P. deltoides) - Hybrid Black Poplar

Populus deltoides - Eastern Cottonwood. Eastern North America.

Populus fremontii - Fremont Cottonwood. Western North America.

Populus section Tacamahaca - balsam poplars. North America, Asia; cool temperate

Populus angustifolia - Willow-leaved Poplar or Narrowleaf Cottonwood. Central North America.

Populus balsamifera - Ontario Balsam Poplar. Northern North America.

Populus trichocarpa - Western Balsam Poplar or Black Cottonwood. Western North America.

Populus laurifolia - Laurel-leaf Poplar. Central Asia.

Populus simonii - Simon's Poplar. Northeast Asia.

Populus maximowiczii - Maximowicz' Poplar. Northeast Asia.

Populus section Leucoides - necklace poplars or bigleaf poplars. Eastern North America, eastern Asia; warm temperate

Populus heterophylla - Swamp Cottonwood. Southeastern North America.

Populus lasiocarpa - Chinese Necklace Poplar. Eastern Asia.

Populus wilsonii - Wilson's Poplar. Eastern Asia.

Populus section Turanga - subtropical poplars. Southwest Asia, east Africa; subtropical to tropical

Populus euphratica - Euphrates Poplar. Southwest Asia.

Populus ilicifolia - Tana River Poplar. East Africa.

[Barry Pyeatt]

Unfortunately, the poplar sold at the "big box" stores isn't "Tulip" poplar. It is common white poplar ( although it often has a greenish cast to it), which is fine for making shelving and for use in furniture projects which are kept indoors. The primary reason for the glue joint breakup on these joined panels is the low quality of the glue used in joining. It is designed to only hold it together for fabrication into a panel. It isn't designed to be subjected to stress of any kind. I've seen lots of these panels self destruct in the cutting process, same with the glued up wide white pine panels.

The biggest challenge with it is that it softens quickly and break down once exposed to the elements and placed outdoors. Encapsulate it and the small amount of residual moisture in the wood will cause it to begin to deteriorate with temp/humidity changes and freeze/thaw cycles. It doesn't have to be in the water for this to happen. Just out in the weather where it gets hot and cools and has wide temp swings and humidity changes.

The big challenge with Red Oak is that its residual moisture content will cause it to begin to blacken under the finishes and decompose. At first it is just unsightly, but then it gets worse and it is a prime growth medium for mold and rot. Doesn't require getting any more moisture than it already has in it. The open cellular structure is not good for out in the weather applictations. Great wood for indoor projects however.

Just some more to think on. And I am well aware that many of the builders have used poplar, white pine, red oak, etc. The better choices to last would be Tulip poplar, Southern Yellow pine and White Oak. All are very suitable for boat building use and yes, more expensive. But then good materials for building boats generally are not carried by the "big box" stores and are generally a bit more expensive too. :roll:

I would much sooner find some narrower pieces of good clear, straight grained lumber and cut them into strips and reassemble them into a good warp free blank of the necessary width and thickness to do the job. Only takes a little while to do this but it is well worth the exercise. The faces are flat and smooth on good lumber and will make good glue to glue faces to reassemble. Just flip end for end every other strip to reverse the grain so they end up l//l\\l//l\\l//l.

[Charlie Jones]

There ya go on the laminating- two pro builders and a highly experienced person coming down on the side of cutting into strips and regluing And almost any store will have yellow pine 2 x 6s.

Graham Burnes of B and B designs his rudders and boards that way also.

Must be SOMETHING to it

And I've said this before, and I'm certain Ray and Barry will both agree here. Buying CHEAP materials is kinda false economy. You are investing a priceless commodity into the boat- your own life time (the hours you spend) May as well build with the best stuff you can find. When you look back on the hours spent, you'll wish you had built better, cause you'll KNOW you've done an inferior job ( choosing materials that is, not in construction), when a bit more cash would have made it a GREAT job.

You're gonna be proud of your boat- make it something to really be proud of.

Stepping down off soap box now