Okume and epoxy

[Barnacle Jim]

Howard, sounds like you found the solution. The more layers I added, the worse the problem became.

Oyster has a good point. I know in my case, there was clearly a chemical reaction going on, resulting in the orange-peel appearance. At the time I thought it was the temperature or how I might be mixing the epoxy.

A chemical additive, as Oyster suggests, could be the culprit. Or, it might simply be the wood's own natural oils. Wouldn't acetone remove the chemical contaminate?

[Craig]

It may or may or may not clean the wood enough Jim. While doing Tom's cruiser top I had a coat of epoxy ( over fir ply) that orange peeled before my very eyes. I called Mike and he suggested the alcohol trick. I rolled out a fine coat over the whole 150 sq ft application and 99% of the orange peel smoothed right out. I still had a bunch of sanding to do but the trick saved the day. This would be even easier to do with a small area. Any time I have epoxyed anything like oakum or door skins I have met with the same rough finish. My suspicion is containments in the grain of the wood. It could be chemical or mechanical such as super small dust particles floating up in the application. How soon after sanding are the applications being made and what cleaning techniques are you guys using??

[hborger]

I don't have any broad words of wisdom for this problem....but, I will tell you that when i use polyester resin instead of epoxy resin on plywood it really leveled out smooth. tried it when i was making my son a skimboard for the beach. It's pretty easy to work with and much less expensive the epoxy. May be just as good as epoxy for topsides.

[Howard]

You might get away with polyester for a quick project like a skimmer board, but for long term use on a wooden boat, it's not recommended. They say a polyester resin doesn't bond well to wood, and at the first hint of moisture in the wood, they will part company. Keep us posted on how it works.

With concern over the kydocfrog jinx, I'll mention the latest test. Precoated my rudder cheeks yesterday. Did the standard coating on one...same old response. Covered the other with wax paper (to mimic release film). Put down an even coat with a spreader, then rolled on the wax paper...taking care to avoid bubbles), then put a sheet of plexiglass over that, and weighted it down to give me a perfectly smooth top.

Result was a nearly smooth surface (with little bumps and ridges where the paper puckered), but also includes a number of tiny pin holes. These I would attribute to outgassing of the wood or air bubbles I put into the mix. Either way, the bubbles were then trapped. Getting these out will require some serious sanding, or lacking that, they get covered over.

All in all, I still think my best course of action is to slap on a sealing coat, take my medicine (sand it), then coat over that.

I'm also going to coat a sample, then send that and some other pieces of scrap to Larry at RAKA. I'm hoping he can find a way to get on a smooth coat that doesn't require a bunch of sanding.

[Guest]

Forcing a finish to be smoothe is not really that good, if the problem is in the release of the resin. You can thin coat or sealer coat, but this is a very bad habit to make resin lay down and is not a practice that I support. This practice of plastic coat, or peelply covering, is a practice more for dealing with topcoating glass and fairing compounds. There may be some personal difference when I state this line, but there are true issues with not getting a correct bond, especially if you are glassing the wood which may not be in your case, but yes these threads apply to a cross section of working with resins, too. Sorry....

[kydocfrog]

I will confess that I am approaching the smooth is relative phase of construction. I think the phrase "30 yard finish" has been used in a way analogous to either close enough for government work or "a man on a galloping horse at 50 meters would never notice." Kind of like "its a learning experience..."

Anyway, I am proceeding even with a few hits, a few runs, and a few errors.

AD AQUA! ZUM DER WASSER!

DocA

[Guest]

Oh, but let me clear up what appears to be a bit of possible misintepretation here. I never promote a lack than luster finish, but in some extreme cases of a knock about boat. Structual integrity is number one, and anything that creates a grey area, in my opinion is never acceptable, ever. Now if you are just coating wood, to seal it, there are times that you can get by with lack luster finish, but never at the expense of the grey area of bonding in tpae and glue or stitch and glule construction. Please do not take my reply as accepting a --------yard finish when it comes to resin bonding to any types of woods, and surely not in conjunction with glass and resin applications.

This is what I meant when I say do not force a smooths finish. If you are getting a rough or orange peel finish there is a reason for it, and find out why, or at least begin by prepping your woods in the same manner as you would do for a good paint adhesion, and if youa re doing that, I suspect , with great confidence that its not any type of resin people are using on their boats that causes the constant orange peel affect. Outgassing will also happen with most resins caused by the simular ambient conditions but does not seem to be the problem that brought about this thread..

Because down the road you may be coating the same types of woods, incorporating structual parts such as glass tabs, where it pretty important that you do get a proper bond.

[kydocfrog]

Quite agree. I have gone back and cut out blisters in glass and sanded and redone the fuzzy parts. But I have reached the point, after a very long year in a very small garage at this, that I'm not sure that some dribbles and bits or a striving for absolute perfection of fairing a tape edge to invisibility is worth keeping me out of the water for another year. Perfect is the enemy of good in a boat that would last longer than I will anyway if I just put her out in the back yard as a sandbox. (The day care center on my college campus is looking for a boat for the playground, but I refuse to talk to them...)

I think I have dealt with the major non-appearance flaws including some rather alarming delamination of the keel when I turned her over. I think the delamination was simply a result of heat and the very long time from the previous owner's original build to my getting her bottom up. That ate a rather significant portion of my epoxy supply.

[Guest]

The day care center on my college campus is looking for a boat for the playground, but I refuse to talk to them...)

Well, I may have one that fits that bill of goods. But in today's world, big guildlines and regulations are in place for certain materials,and a very selective set of rules that will allow something other than approved items, manufactured with big brother looking over the shoulder that can be used for this use. I do not know of your location, but check and see about it and if I am close, and you do not want to give your up, than I may have one for the need.

[kydocfrog]

I know. We will find one of the approved plastic playground boats. No splinters, no pointy things, lots less fun and imagination.

We really don't have room for a very big boat anyway. (We are in central Kentucky, which is big, but the fenced area is small... right ...)

But thanks.